Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83 based; site homxb.UUCP
Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!homxb!mr
From: mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Zionism is not racism; Anti-Israel = antisemitic
Message-ID: <960@homxb.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 1-Dec-85 04:26:59 EST
Article-I.D.: homxb.960
Posted: Sun Dec  1 04:26:59 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 6-Dec-85 20:19:47 EST
References: <482@mhuxm.UUCP> <11015@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ
Lines: 56
Xref: lsuc net.politics:2288 net.religion.jewish:1656

> In article <11085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> arnold@ucbvax.UUCP (Kenneth C R C Arnold) writes:
> >In article <489@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes:
> >>>> ... the following identity is TRUE:
> >>>> anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic  (J. Abeles)
> >>> 
> >>> The preceding identity is FALSE.
> >>> 
> >>>                 ...  At the time of the debate after WW II about
> >>> whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it
> >>> for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel
> >>> before the coming of the Messiah ...
> >>> 
> >>> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the
> >>> current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle.
> >>> 		(Ken Arnold)
> >>
> >>My response:
> >>
> >>1)  There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist.
> >>    It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic.
> >
> > ..........
> 
> Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and
> have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the
> experience of European Jews among Europeans.  Only Sefardic Judaism
> can be considered normative.  While most Sefardic hakamim (sages) despise

This is basically true, many of the European Jews practice a form of apologetic
Judaism, alomost as if they are embarrased to be Jews. The leftover Jews from
Germany are the most honest in their form (i.e. mine) of Judaism.

> European Zionism, none are against the existence of Israel and almost
> all consider Israel 'athilta' dege'ulta' (the beginning of redemption).
> While badly phrased, Abeles statement is not essentially wrong.
> 
> >>2)  There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with
> >>    the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism.
> >
> >You said Anti-Israel == Anti-Zionist.  You seem to be refuting that
> >here.  Kahane, as I understand it, believes that the current state of
> >Israel is not the Zionist state because it allows Arab citizenship.  He
> >is certainly against the state of Israel as it stands, but is also,
> >certainly, a Zionist.  He is also, certainly, a facist pig as far as
> >I'm concerned, but this is beside the point.
> 
> I despise Kahane for the way he cloaks his personal viewpoint in the
> Torah.  The former foremost in Zion Ovadia Yosef has taken the traditional

Actually, many of Kahanes statements are in the spirit of the Torah and in
fact are the word of the Torah.

> Sefardic viewpoint that land may be conceded to the Muslims for the
> sake of preserving life.  Also non-Jews are not forbidden to live in Israel.
> yakim
mark