Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site im4u.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!gatech!ut-sally!im4u!jsq From: jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.nlang Subject: Re: One for our side Message-ID: <692@im4u.UUCP> Date: Fri, 6-Dec-85 01:41:40 EST Article-I.D.: im4u.692 Posted: Fri Dec 6 01:41:40 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 7-Dec-85 03:26:20 EST References: <973@decwrl.UUCP> <12580@rochester.UUCP> Reply-To: jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas Lines: 65 Keywords: try a dictionary.... Xref: watmath net.politics:12345 net.nlang:3855 Summary: Try a *Spanish* dictionary. In article <259@ethz.UUCP> prl@ethz.UUCP (Peter Lamb) writes: > >Re the etymological theories regarding 'gringo', looked in >the Shorter OED & the Concise OED, which both have the word >and an etymology, and they claim that 'gringo' is a Spanish word meaning >'gibberish'. I would like to say that this confirms speculation on the net >about American English, but unfortunately the definition they give includes >*all* English speakers. The original discussion was about the Spanish word gringo, not what the same letters might spell in England. Anyone who's ever been to Mexico or points south knows that that is not the primary meaning of gringo. Here are some definitions from a relatively reliable but concise Spanish dictionary, the Peque~no Larousse Ilustrado. It ain't too scholarly, but it is Spanish (I know it's published in Paris, but the editor and contributors weren't). Sloppy English translations by me. GRINGO, GA adj. y s. Despect. Extranjero, especialmente ingl'es. || Amer. Nombre con que se designa a los ingleses o norteamericanos. || Fam. Hablar en gringo, hablar en lenguaje ininteligible. (Slang. Foreigner, especially English. || American usage. Name with which to designate English or North Americans. || Familiar usage. To speak in gringo, to speak unintelligibly. NORTEAMERICANO, NA adj. y s. Natural de un pais de Am'erica del Norte y especialmente de los Estados Unidos. (Native of a country of North America and especially of the United States.) YANKEE o YANQUI adj. y s. Norteamericano. I should point out that to European Spanish speakers the primary gringo nationality may be English but near and in the U.S. it's norteamericano. Otherwise, these definitions agree with every other Spanish dictionary I've ever seen. Etymologies are another question. I ran into a Catholic priest the other day who grew up in central and south America and spoke Spanish as a second language very early. Someone asked him what the origin of "gringo" was. He immediately broke into a rendition of "Green Grow the Lilacs". I told him the anecdote I had heard about U.S. troops singing the song as they invaded Mexico shortly after Texas joined the Union (1845). He agreed that was the same as he had always understood. I pointed out that some believed that the word was derived from griego, for Greek. He remarked that he could see how that could be plausible, if foreign were implied by griego. However, the song derivation more closely matched his observations of how nicknames and other appellations came about in Spanish: according to something a person said or did. (Has anyone considered parallels with "honky" or "barbarian"? They both come from impressions of the way people speak. Coincidentally enough, both, like gringo, were commonly applied by the people who originated them (American blacks and ancient Greeks) to people of northern European extraction, though at somewhat different times....) Maybe I'll mosey down to the local research library and see if any Spanish etymological dictionaries have anything interesting to say. -- John Quarterman, UUCP: {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU