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From: martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Zionism is not racism; Anti-Israel = antisemitic
Message-ID: <179@hector.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 3-Dec-85 07:07:31 EST
Article-I.D.: hector.179
Posted: Tue Dec  3 07:07:31 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 4-Dec-85 19:06:02 EST
References: <482@mhuxm.UUCP> <11015@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Reply-To: martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo)
Organization: MIT Project Athena
Lines: 58
Xref: lsuc net.politics:2277 net.religion.jewish:1651
Summary: 

In article <1911@psuvax1.UUCP> berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) writes:
>Martillo:
>
>> Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and
>> have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the
>> experience of European Jews among Europeans.  Only Sefardic Judaism
>> can be considered normative.  
>
>Martillo clearly despises the majority of Jews ("warped forms").
>Thus I would say that he is 60% of an anti-semite.  Still, he is
>0% Anti-Israel.

I merely have a low opinion of the course of development of the European
Jewish community though I will admit having little regard for ignorant
European Jews who drool sympathy for persecutors of oriental and Sefardic
Jews.  

Given the history of Russian Jewish insensitivity to the needs and
feelings of Sefardic and oriental Jews, I believe I know who the
anti-semite is.  Unlike Ashkenazim, Sefardim are proud and have no
tradition of self-hatred or groveling to please Western intellectuals.

>Characteristically, the defenders of Israel are divided into those
>who deny any oppression of Palestinians and those who claim (like
>Martillo) that it is perfectly moral and reasonable to oppress them.

Well, I did not say oppress but rather suppress and I would not call
suppression ethically uplifting for the suppressors but until Muslims
show some evidence of being able to live on terms of equality and
mutual respect with non-Muslims, nobody with even half a brain should
deny to Israel the right to take necessary preventative measures.
Personally I  feel Israel does not suppress Muslims enough especially
given the examples of suppression of the Muslim brotherhoods by Egypt
and Syria.  Convicted terrorists should be executed.

Generally, Jewish thought has considered overleniency to be as big a
crime at least as overseverity.

>While anyone reasonable must agree that Israel must supress any
>terrorist tendencies on the occupied territories, there is a valid
>question whether Israel could be more benevolent toward occupied
>Arabs.  In particular, where is the authonomy, which was being
>promised in Camp David?  

Well, Palestinians were always free to send representatives to the
talks but never did.  Since I consider the existence of countries like
Egypt a grave injustice, I am not particularly broken up that
Palestinian Muslims have gained little in the way of autonomy.

>The fact that say, Syria, is much worse opressor of her own people 
>is not the sufficient reason to laud Israel policies.  The obvious
>fact is that it is very difficult to be nice in the Middle East.
>But one should understand that anti-Israel feelings are frequently
>(albeit not in majority) of political, not racial nature.
>
>Piotr Berman