Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site umcp-cs.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!qantel!lll-crg!gymble!umcp-cs!israel From: israel@umcp-cs.UUCP (Bruce Israel) Newsgroups: net.singles Subject: What is a friend? Message-ID: <2359@umcp-cs.UUCP> Date: Fri, 29-Nov-85 13:35:00 EST Article-I.D.: umcp-cs.2359 Posted: Fri Nov 29 13:35:00 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 30-Nov-85 06:55:31 EST Reply-To: israel@maryland.UUCP (Bruce israel) Organization: U of Maryland, Computer Science Dept., College Park, MD Lines: 116 In article <221@unirot.UUCP> pooh@unirot.UUCP (Pooh) writes: >In article <2333@umcp-cs.UUCP>, israel@umcp-cs.UUCP (Bruce Israel) writes: >> >> Wouldn't I be a better >> friend if I helped pull him out of his "shit", than if I just let him >> sleep in it until he asked me for help? > >My answer is: no. You would be a better friend by minding your own >business and letting HIM decide when he wanted help. This assumes that the person a) realizes that he's in bad shape, b) realizes that something can be done about it, and c) is willing to ask for help. Many times people want help but can't or won't ask for it for a number of different reasons. How often do you hear about suicides and attempted suicides where the attempt itself was the first time the person "asked" for help! Personally, I'd rather not let it get that far. I realize that this is an exaggeration, but sometimes it gets that far, and even if it doesn't, the same things are applicable. > >> Here's a hypothetical situation for you, Pooh. >> [ Description of situation where I wear ridiculous clothing >> to a party and don't realize other people's opinions of it. ] >> >> . . . Quick!!!! What do you do? . . . > >I ask the other people, in private, to stop laughing at you. > >This lets you wear your combination if it pleases you, and still >lets me do something to keep your dignity. Otherwise, I would let >you wear whatever you liked, and if you found that you didn't like >being laughed at, you could ask me if I knew why, and I would tell >you. In real life they are not going to be laughing out loud; maybe a little snickering at worst, most likely just looking askance at me and thinking thoughts of contempt. If that's the situation, then you talking to them is just going to make it worse, because they weren't really laughing at me; just doing it inside their heads, and your talking to them won't change that a bit. And I wouldn't ask you because I don't realize that there's a problem, so you waiting for me to ask you is no solution at all. But that's not my real problem with your solution. Its sort of like the guy who went to the doctor complaining that "It hurts when I do this!" and the doctor responds "Don't do that". You see, you are treating the symptoms instead of the problem. The next couple of parties I go to you won't be there (since you live in NJ and I live in Md.) AND I'll STILL get laughed at at them! And sometime later at another party I may walk up to an attractive female, who looks me up and down and says "Get lost, Creep!" Also, as an aside, I'm curious about one thing. What's the difference in waiting for me to ask you for advice, but yet going up to these other people at the party and giving them unasked advice on their behaviour? >Or I can do what I can to spare your feelings, and at the same time >not make judgements about what you should or shouldn't be wearing. In some cases, its not really judgements about bad vs good clothes to wear, as much as it is about what assists you in having life work better vs. what gets in your way of things you want in life. For instance, what it the party was a work situation, and you know that if I don't start wearing professional looking clothes I'm going to get fired? Would you then advise me, or not? If you would, why is there a difference? >Again, I ask: why? Why should we take it on ourselves to tell >someone that he's "fucking up" a situation? Why don't we let him >have the dignity of finding it out himself and deciding for himself >whether he's making a mistake? Because the situation could get a lot worse (that is, assume that it can get worse.) I'm not suggesting that you always tell him that he's "fucking up" a situation, just that sometimes that's the best thing to do for him. And sometimes the best thing to do is to let him find out about it himself. Which brings up the basic problem here, and the next topic of discussion (for all you net.singles readers that have actually made it this far thru my posting.) Our basic disagreement here is in our definitions and expectations of what it means to be a friend. What does it mean to be a friend? My definition is that a friend is a person who wants the best for you, and is committed to that goal. Note that this DOES NOT mean wanting what YOU THINK is the best for you! I don't believe that everyone KNOWS what the best for them is (This is your basic assumption, Pooh, that they always know what's best for them and then will take steps to create that.) Before I get flamed, let me also say that I don't feel that I ALWAYS know what's best for my friends either, and this is something that always needs to be taken into account. But I don't control my friend's lives and their decisions (I can't) so all I can do is give them advice when I feel it necessary and maybe open up to them some options that they hadn't considered. BTW, I don't want to sound like I'm a jewish mother, always giving advice, because I don't do that. I also ask advice from friends, since its a two way street. OK, I ask the rest of you out there, what are your definitions and expectations of friendship? -- Bruce Israel University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept. {rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel@Maryland (Arpanet)