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From: woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: What is a friend?
Message-ID: <1879@hao.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 4-Dec-85 14:23:32 EST
Article-I.D.: hao.1879
Posted: Wed Dec  4 14:23:32 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 7-Dec-85 15:40:57 EST
References: <2359@umcp-cs.UUCP> <226@unirot.UUCP>
Organization: High Altitude Obs./NCAR, Boulder CO
Lines: 59

> My point is that you CANNOT force help on someone who doesn't want it.
> No matter how nicely you phrase it, going to someone and saying, "Look,
> you're making a mess of your life" is not going to do anything unless
> that person a) wants help, or b) is open-minded enough to look at it
> and say, "Gosh, you're right--thanks for telling me."

  How does one know in advance that it isn't b) above? Or that it is a) and
the person is too shy/afraid to ask for help? The only way to find out is to 
say something. And there are ways of helping someone out non-judgmentally,
i.e. you don't have to say "You're doing this 'wrong'", you can just say
"Has it occured to you that your life might work better FOR YOU if you...",
which lets them retain the power of judgment over their own actions.

> Because I'm not going to them with the premise that they have a Problem
> and I know how to solve it.  

  I don't think this is what Bruce is advocating. Remember, they do not HAVE
to take your advice, and there are ways of giving advice while emphasizing
that they do not have to take it. Saying "you have a problem and I know how
to solve it" is making a negative judgment about that person's life. It is
not necessary to make this judgment in order to give advice. I look at it as
more presenting them with an option they might not have been aware of 
previously, and then letting THEM be free to choose a course of action.

> Bruce, your concern for a friend is all good and well, but I find that
> people who have gone through a life-fixing seminar tread a very thin
> line between caring and proselytizing.

  While this is often true, it is a generalization not always the case. 
Personally I do not see what the fact that Bruce went through a "life-fixing 
seminar" (and I happen to think that's an inaccurate description of it, but 
that's another issue) has to do with this discussion.

> Suddenly you realize that your
> life is working better than you ever thought it could, and everywhere
> you see signs of people whose lives aren't working. You care about them,
> so you try very hard to do what YOU think is best for them:  you tell
> them that there's a better way of living, and you fret when they
> don't take your advice.

  No, you don't say there's a "better" way of living, you say there's an
*alternative* way of living and let THEM judge for themselves if it's better
FOR THEM or not, and you certainly DON'T fret when they don't take your advice.

> This reminds me, chillingly, of my "best friend" in junior high
> who sat me down and told me about Jesus, because she was terrified
> that I was going to go to hell because I was Jewish.

   This is an example of how NOT to give advice. An implicit assumption that
you are "wrong" has been made, or that the way SHE lived HER life is 
automatically right for YOU. My point is that it is not necessary to do this
to give advice. 

--Greg
--
{ucbvax!hplabs | decvax!noao | mcvax!seismo | ihnp4!seismo}
       		        !hao!woods

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