Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Path: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!info-ibmpc From: Info-IBMPC@USC-ISIB.ARPA (Info-IBMPC Digest) Newsgroups: mod.computers.ibm-pc Subject: Info-IBMPC Digest V4 #141 Message-ID: <8512240115.AA26577@ucbvax.berkeley.edu> Date: Mon, 23-Dec-85 16:48:00 EST Article-I.D.: ucbvax.8512240115.AA26577 Posted: Mon Dec 23 16:48:00 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 23-Dec-85 23:09:30 EST Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Reply-To: INFO-IBMPC@USC-ISIB.ARPA Organization: The ARPA Internet Lines: 1524 Approved: info-ibmpc@usc-isib.arpa Info-IBMPC Digest Monday, 23 December 1985 Volume 4 : Issue 141 This Week's Editor: Billy Brackenridge Today's Topics: Tandy 1000 Software Incompatibilities Good RAM Test Needed "fp" Utility DEBUGGER QUERY PC Paint vs. IBM Graphics Printer Kermit Through a TAC Xenix Badtrack/Clock Memory Above 640K for the IBM PC/XT (Compatible) MASM Support Halting a Program Xenix Xmas Present: >64K data in Medium Model! DOS vs Direct Screen I/O X.PC Arrives Franz-Like Lisps Fortran Compiler for IBM PC/AT (no 8087) IBM compatible PC-10, PC-20 and Commodore Related Magazine KERMIT for DG/1 ? Venix/Xenix for the AT HELP: nroff <-> WordPerfect Need Some Coprocessor Pointers and Information Xmodem Protocol Description Picking a Data Base Package & Computer System EGA Vert. Retrace Query? How to get PC-HACK Multi-user DBMS packages Using "cd" (or "cwd") with FTP to SIMTEL20 Adding a Hard Disk to the AT... "fp" Utility Needed Xenix and News Cheap PC Clones... Anyone out There Using MS Windows Tecmar Megafunction or Equivalent PCjr Questions Creating Commodore Files that can be read by MS or PC DOS Software design tools PCUNIX by WENDIN ATT DOS 2.11 Backup/Restore /P option ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stephan Alexa Cooper Subject: Tandy 1000 Software Incompatibilities Date: 19 Dec 85 20:16:11 GMT Sorry to post this, but I got a query a while back asking for a list of IBM PC programs that Do NOT run on the Tandy 1000. Here is a summary: (note - this list was compiled from other sources, I did not write this, just put it together from other people's replies): Tandy 1000 ========== RE: its compatibily, It is quite compatible up to a point: I have found that several games fail to start up (the original version of the diskette) which indicates problems with the floppy disk controller. I looked at the schematic diagrams of the t1000 and the XT controller and they are quite different - the Tandy uses a couple of PAL's and large devices while the XT controller uses a lot of TTL MSI. Not having a hardware ref manual for t1000, I don't know if the t1000 emulates the XT controller to a high degree but I doubt it. Something which annoyed me considerably more: expansion cards of the right size (10'' or less) don't quite fit: part of the IBM-PC form factor is a little tab in the end of the metal plate used to hold the card to the chassis. Well the t1000 motherboard is flat against the chassis not having any space for the tab. There are two solutions: cut the tab or remove the metal plate. I removed the plate of a RS232 card (because of the warranty) but that is not a very good solution because then the card wobles. Not wanting to give a bad opinion of the machine, I fully recommend it. It works very well, generates little noise, it has a small footprint, it is cute, and I think it is great. As someone said, it is what the PCjr should have been. Price/performance-wise, if you buy it through the mail, it is unbeatable. > I'm thinking on buying one of these, but I wonder > how compatible it is with an IBM/PC. > Can you buy expansion cards and plug them in? > Can you put an 8087? What about software: would > it run DBase III, Symphony, etc? The machine is a cross between the PC and the jr. One BIG compat. problem has to do with DMA. The base machine has none, but the memory cards add DMA circuitry. The as a result, you can not use any add-in cards with memory unless you have first added a tandy memory card. since the machine only has 3 slots, this is a pain (tandy has no multi-function card for this beast last time I checked.) The keyboard is a bit different. (BTW - they don't have a scroll lock key, which some packages want (like 1-2-3), but there is a key combo that emulate it, I forget which). As a guide to compatibility, Lotus 1-2-3's IBM version can be made to run on the machine (not well, but functional). However, the hassles/ problems were significant enough that a migration for the tandy was done. With the current price trends for the IBM PC, why not wait until the next round of price cuts (this fall?? if you believe S.Katt) and get a 'fully compatible unit' :-). ----- > as a result, you can not use any add-in cards with > memory unless you have first added a tandy memory card. since the machine > only has 3 slots, this is a pain (tandy has no multi-function card for > this... However, there are third party memory boards that DO work. The one I have (an MFB1000, by PBJ(tm)) is one such card. It comes with a clock, the capacity for 512K more, and an RS232 port. The machine itself has a built in printer port, so I still have two slots left (and I have 640K, a printer port, and an RS232 and a clock). This is definitely NOT a pain (This is definitely NOT a flame, either...just an explanation.) I would recommend the T1000, as it is (and probably always will be, less expensive, especially if not bought from a Radio Shack store, but from a warehouse or computer outlet). ----- A couple of weeks ago, I posted an inquiry to the net asking for what software people knew would not run on a Tandy 1000. At that time, I promised a summary of responses; well, this is it. Six people responded to the original article. Unfortunately, most of the replies were from people considering the Tandy, rather than from owners. Nevertheless, a small list of software did evolve: Alphabet Zoo- IBM Version (Spinnaker) Buzzard Bait (Sirius) Mastertype (Scarborough Software) Math Blaster (Davidson & Associates) Murder by the Dozen (CBS Software) CopyIIpc PCWRIT Prowriter utilities (C. Itoh) Telios (seems to talk to the modem, but won't let me in on the conversation.) PC-VT Notes: The programs are arranged as follows: the first group are game/educational programs, second are copy programs, third are utilities, and last are communications programs. According to reports, there is one problem with hardware compatibility, the length of the board. The 1000 is designed to take boards up to 10.5" long. Unfortunately, many popular boards exceed that length. Any board which will fit in the short slot of the XT or in the Portable PC should be right at home in the Tandy. Steve Cooper Johns Hopkins University Homewood Computing Center ...!seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_asac ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19-Dec-85 18:51:29 PDT From: bcsaic!asymet!fred@uw-june (Fred Wamsley) Subject: Good RAM Test Needed We're looking for a RAM test (to be run on a PC AT) which is more thorough than the diagnostics which come with the machine. Most of our AT's run at 9 Mhz, and we need something which will catch intermittent failures from chips with marginal timing. Thanks in advance, Fred Wamsley Asymetrix Corp. uw-june!bcsaic!asymet!fred@uw-beaver ------------------------------ From: johnl@ima.uucp Subject: "fp" Utility /* Written 11:54 pm Dec 16, 1985 by mas@charm in ima:net.micro.pc */ > I am looking for a utility program called " fp " or so. It creates " > shared" directories for data files, quite similar to " path" for > executable files. Try getting "file facility" for $19.95 from IBM. We use it around here and it works reliably. Somebody brought in a copy of "fp" which caused all sorts of mysterious problems on his machine until I exterminated it and gave him file facility instead. Order by calling 800-IBM-PCSW, it's part number 6276530. John Levine, ima!johnl ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 85 23:31:00 EST From: PP147363 Subject: DEBUGGER QUERY Has anyone out there ever seen a debbuger that runs off the serial port of the PC ? It would be kind of nice to be able to see the debug output on a terminal not interfering with your real screen. Nothing fancy needed, breakpoints, trace (icing like symbols, windows :-), If you've seen macdb for the mac you'll know what I Mean. Thanks John [I use Codesmith which supports all the Icing you mentioned above. It also supports simultaneous use of color and monochrome monitors. Even with just one monitor it never interfers with what is on the screen. Their phone number is: (213) 439-2414 -wab] ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 85 06:47 EST From: David Potter - McDonnell Douglas/AUGMENT Div. Subject: PC Paint vs. IBM Graphics Printer Re your problem with double-spaced output from PC Paint and the IBM printer -- contact Mouse Systems (the PC Paint developers) for a fix, which is a do-it-yourself debug operation, as I recall. I may even still have the instructions around here somewhere myself -- will pass it along if I can find it -- but anyway it is a known, easy-to-fix bug. Regards -- David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 85 9:47:42 EST From: Steven Segletes To: info-ibmpc@usc-isib.ARPA Subject: Kermit Through a TAC There has been mention on the net recently of the difficulty of using kermit through a TAC. The problem can be circumvented by disabling the interception of the `@' character. Of course, this disables the (re)programming of the TAC port until you log out and log back onto the TAC. The procedure is @b i s @b o s These two commands to the TAC request binary input and output to the port, thus preventing the interception of any characters as special characters. Steve Segletes U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD 21005-5066 p.s. the order in which the two commands are issued is important. Using the wrong order will result in the second command being passed through to the host system. It is possible that I have specified the wrong order above (I haven't used this feature in a while), but it should be immediately obvious if I did. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1985 09:45:20-EST From: mlsmith@NADC Subject: Xenix Badtrack/Clock Try reinstalling Xenix and when the badtrack program runs, make sure that the tracks printed on the front of the CMI are found. If not, add them as well as track 2 (if not listed). Reinstall Xenix and let us know if that was it. DOS and Unix should read the same time from the same clock! If you have user files, save them to floppy before reinstallation and good luck! mlsmith@nadc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 85 08:40 GMT From: meaders @ KOREA-EMH Subject: Memory Above 640K for the IBM PC/XT (Compatible) Looking for information on using memory above the present limit of 640K. I have recently assembled a MegaBoard made by Design Telecommunications Corp. In the literature they claim that four banks of 256K Rams can be installed on the motherboard. They also briefly mentioned the requirement for a reprogramed PAL or PROM and a differant BIOS EPROM. Anybody give me additional info? ------------------------------ From: microsof!gordonl@uw-beaver.arpa Subject: MASM Support Date: Fri Dec 20 09:37:38 1985 Re: MASM update policy: From: Kim DeVaughn Date: 11 Dec 85 19:53:49 GMT Of course, even though I have their buggy Rev 2.x assembler, they won't give *me* a break on a new revision ... *my* floppy is from Fujitsu, even though it is says "(c) Microsoft". And it is MICROSOFT that threatens the wrath of God if I don't abide by *their* license agreement. Talk about having it "both ways"! Fujitsu, of course, has no intention of supporting their customers in this matter ... "it's not *our* assembler ... call Microsoft". Bahhh! You don't understand the business arrangement here. Microsoft sold Fujitsu the rights to encorporate the MASM code in a product of theirs. We receive a small fee for this, a few dollars per copy. The OEM (Fujitsu) is responsible for producing, shipping, and supporting the product. I have an Audi, and I happen to know that the climate control system was designed and built by GM. But I'm not confused over who sold me the system, who took the majority of the profit from it, and who is responsible for supporting it - its AUDI. If I hear that GM is upgrading the system on GM cars, all that tells me is that I can ask AUDI to do right by me and offer the same upgrade. I realize that GM has no responsibility towards me - they sold a design and some parts to another company, and that deal - private between the companies - put the whole of the support effort on AUDI, in exchange for which they get the bulk of the money. I have no explicit or implicit deal with GM - they have no responsibility towards me. The thing that confuses you is that it says (c) microsoft on the disk and you sign a MS license agreement, wheras you don't see GM on the climate control box. THis is because of the way that intellectual property works - GM doesn't have to copyright their climate box, since it can't be reproduced in a XEROX machine. And if some company were to knock off the design, they have patent protection. In the case of intellectual property, we have to assert copyright ownership, rather than patent. The law requires that each copy carry the copyright notice - prominantly. I don't know if the GM gear has to carry patent numbers, but if so they can be under the covers. The license agreement is also necesary to keep from loosing our ownership of the product. Our name appears on parts that were sold to OEMs stricly because of legal necessity; the actuality is that you bought a Fujitsu assembler, and that's where you have to get your support. Fujitsu's statement is either made from ignorance, or you misunderstood when they said, "We don't support this (our) product. Microsoft sells and supports an identical product, you can see them." If you buy a Microsoft assembler from Microsoft, you can get support from Microsoft. Gordon Letwin Microsoft ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 85 09:58:36 EST From: Andy_Mondore%RPI-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Halting a Program One way you can halt a program is to include "break=on" in your config.sys file. This allows Ctrl-Break to be processed whenever a DOS function is called, whether or not it is an I/O function call. However, if you are in a loop, you still need to call a function in the loop for the break to be processed. This also assumes, of course, that the program has not turned off interrupts, in which case the only thing you can do is a cold boot. ------------------------------ From: Herm Fischer To: info-ibmpc@isib.arpa Subject: Xenix Xmas Present: >64K data in Medium Model! Date: Fri Dec 20 11:30:54 1985 Xenix 3.0 comes from IBM/Microsoft with a large model; however, as most experimenters have noted, large model does not work too well. (For example, termcap, yacc-generated programs, and other features seem to have large model troubles.) But, I discovered that you CAN get medium model programs to allocate (dynamically) more data segments!!! First, you need to create a medium model "large data" malloc'er routine. Extract from the large model library malloc.o and sbrk.o. Then use adb to patch all name symbols to new values: I changed *oc to *pb, (eg malloc, calloc, and realloc -> mallpb, callpb, etc), free to frfd, and sbrk to sbsj. Note that the program is checksummed, so that for every letter you move up in the alphabet you must move another backwards! The names to change are malloc, calloc, realloc, free, and sbrk. These will now be your medium model large data allocators. Second, you need to rename the files, e.g., malloc.o -> mallpb.o and sbrk.o -> sbsj.o. These need to be included in your compiles or link steps. Third, in your medium model programs use the -M[2]el flag, which allows the far keyword. Then, mallpb and frfb (et al) have to handle data which is defined as "char far *" instead of "char *". For example, the definition for mallpb is "char far *mallpb();". You cannot pass as subroutine arguments far pointers to medium model subroutines. For example, printf, strcpy and the like, all expect non-far pointers. (I wrote my own replacements to copy far-pointer strings to regular medium model (near pointer strings) so they can be printf'ed.) Each allocation by mallpb must be less than 32K. On my system, cumulative mallpb's grab up to 500K of data before dieing. I haven't figured out how to get mallpb to nicely tell me it exhausted the amount of space the kernel wants it to have. Beware that conflicts between stack allocation, medium and large malloc's, and the like, cause a "memory fault" signal, which is trapped by adb, but logs you off the shell. Ignore the linker warning about "mixing models". Merry Xmas (with bigger trees [not so pun-nish, now] ), Herm Fischer {hfischer@ada20.arpa; {randvax,ihnp4,decvax}!hermix!fischer } ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 85 11:21:47 mst From: Kelvin Nilsen To: Info-IBMPC@usc-isib.arpa Subject: DOS vs Direct Screen I/O Steve Walton made a request that future terminal emulation projects use DOS calls for screen updating: It was mentioned that "there are relatively few machine instructions between the DOS screen update and a call to BIOS." You'll get a lot of debate on this, BUT even if it were true, there are more fundamental problems: Writing screen updates through DOS often encourages that updates be nicely packaged into character-at-a-time instructions. This is a problem when updating large portions of the screen. Traveling up and down the call chain for each character or short string of update instructions is MUCH more expensive than a simple block move. I've noticed that the AT BIOS has fancier screen calls which allow line at a time updates instead of requiring calls to update each character position. Better than the PC, but still not good enough. Hiding terminal emulation in a device driver makes it much more difficult to provide asynchronous screen updates. Screen update instructions sent to an intelligent terminal by a full-screen editor are often more efficiently written to the screen after a group of instructions has been merged together. At high baud rates, the merging of instructions is not perceived by the user. Examples: Insertion of text on an existing line often takes the form of one insert character instruction for each character of the inserted text. Have you seen how slow this takes place on a sun workstation? Scrolling within an emacs window is accomplished by deletion of several lines followed immediately by insertion of the same updated lines. This appears to the user as the entire screen jumping up and back down again. From a human factors standpoint, it is desirable here to merge the delete and insert instructions into a single screen update. Another problem. I'm not sure that WINDOWS will cooperate with an alternative ANSI.SYS. I have seen no documentation on it at all, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would expect that WINDOWS is itself a replacement for ANSI.SYS. However it works, WINDOWS cannot be totally ignorant of the type of terminal emulation going on, and likewise the terminal emulation driver cannot be ignorant of WINDOWS. The more sophisticated DOS becomes, the more sophisticated application software is going to need to be. My idea for how communications applications will run under DOS 4.0 and up is at the level of multiple sessions through the communications software. That is, the communications software will replace WINDOWS. So called well-disciplined applications can run in sessions of the communications program using the ANSI (or whatever) emulation that is part of the program anyway. To run "undisciplined" full-screen packages, the communications program goes into the background (where it is still running, just not visible) and understands that it will need to rewrite the entire screen when brought to the foreground. Or, maybe WINDOWS will provide decent enough communications capabilities that all of us communications programmers will be put out on the street. kelvin nilsen ------------------------------ From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX Subject: X.PC Arrives Date: 18 Dec 85 13:29:39 GMT Omen Technology has recently received Version 2.3 of the Tymnet X.PC driver. This version corrects a stack usage incompatibility with DOS which caused poor error recovery to line hits as well as crashes with some multitasking systems such as DESQview, Windows, etc. The fix should also help Microsoft Access users attempting to use X.PC over imperfect phone lines. X.PC provides an end to end, error corrected, flow controlled connection that allows unattended, automatic access of information services through Tymnet. Just think, no }}i characters to confuse your scripts! Version 15.16 of Professional-YAM communications software (YAMKXPC.EXE) takes full advantage of X.PC with the public domain YMODEM-g and Kermit Sliding Windows file transfer protocols. These provide high throughput file transfers resistant to delays introduced by timesharing systems, satellites, networks, and X.PC itself. YAMKXPC supports concurrent capture on up to three X.PC virtual channels, or full script operation on one channel with concurrent capture (or upload) on the other two. Please contact Omen Technology for more details. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf CIS:70715,131 Omen Technology Inc 17505-V NW Sauvie Island Road Portland OR 97231 Home of Professional-YAM, the most powerful COMM program for the IBM PC Voice: 503-621-3406 TeleGodzilla: 621-3746 (Hit CRs) L.sys entry for omen: omen Any ACU 1200 1-503-621-3746 se:--se: link ord: Giznoid in:--in: uucp ------------------------------ From: michael b maxwell Subject: Franz-Like Lisps Date: 17 Dec 85 21:40:38 GMT I'm looking for lisps that are available on pcs running MS-DOS, XENIX, Sys V, or OS-9. The lisps should meet the following criteria: -include a compiler -resemble Franz or Common Lisp in their syntax -be able to access a "reasonable" amount of memory (640k is *not* a reasonable amount!) -have "hooks" to the operating system (like Franz Lisp's *process) In addition, my understanding is that structures like vectors and hunks are much faster to access than lists, since you don't have to follow pointers (assuming the language has been written in a reasonable way!). So my dream lisp should have such data structures, and preferably a defstruct macro to make accessing them easier. I'm aware of Gold Hill Common Lisp (which will have a compiler and large memory capabilities "real soon now"). And I've heard that commercial Franz is available for Sys V, but at a price... Any others? Please mail replies to: -- Mike Maxwell Boeing Artificial Intelligence Center ...uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!michaelm ------------------------------ From: Gary Vecellio Subject: Fortran Compiler for IBM PC/AT (no 8087) Date: 19 Dec 85 15:19:23 GMT To: info-ibmpc@usc-isib.ARPA Could someone point me in the direction of a Fortran compiler for an IBM PC/AT (without an 8087 chip). The main criteria is compatibility with Vax VMS Fortran 77 and PDP RSX-11 Fortran. We do a lot of byte calculations so a integer*1 would be useful. Thanks in advance. Gary Vecellio UUCP ..!{watmath|dual|decvax}!sunybcs!vecellio CSNET vecellio@BUFFALO.CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: Kevin Hoskins Subject: IBM compatible PC-10, PC-20 and Commodore Related Magazine Date: 19 Dec 85 16:44:22 GMT My mail does not seem to be going out. Therefore, for the people that have responded and asked for the address of The Transactor, here it is: The Transactor 277 Linwood Avenue Buffalo, NY 14209-9990 Subscriptions are $15 for 6 consecutive issues, back issues are available at $4.50 each, and disks containing programs from volume 4 to the present are $7.50 each. Kevin ------------------------------ From: Dick Lane Subject: KERMIT for DG/1 ? Date: 20 Dec 85 06:21:43 GMT Is there a version of KERMIT which is tailored to run on the Data General/One ? (A friend has bootstrapped the generic MS-DOS version to run on the DG/1, we're looking now for a version adapted to the DG/1's communications port.) If you know where such a thing might exist, please send me Email with pointers (path to me: ... ! ucbvax ! ucdavis ! u-mt ! lane ), thanks. Some people here may want to consider a commercial program for file transfers and terminal emulation. Use of KERMIT protocol and VT100 emulation seem most important, emulation of a Tektronix 4010 would be nice; our communications are with DEC-20's, VAX's running Unix or VMS, and miscellaneous MS-DOS machines (each has KERMIT). The following table summarizes a few features of some programs whose literature asserts they run on the DG/1. File Transfer Terminal Emulation Copy Program ASCII KERMIT XMODEM VT100 Tek4010 Protc'd Price ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PC-PLOT * * * N $ 95 COMMX/PC * * * $ 99 Crosstalk XVI * * * N $195 MITE/MS * * $195 poly-COM * * $200 Relay Gold * * * * N $149 SmarTerm 100 * * * $175 Softerm PC * * * Y $195 ZAP ($85), VTEK ($150), EM100 ($149) and EM4010 ($249) also seem interesting (ZAP, VTEK and EM4010 will emulate a Tek4010) -- however, they do not claim to work with the DG/1. Perhaps the recent bargain price on DG/1's to university students and faculty has created a larger market which will encourage program developers to add the DG/1 to their repertoire. I would appreciate comments -- based upon experience -- about good or bad features of those or other programs. I will summarize to the net. Thanks -- Dick -- US Mail : Dick Lane, University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812 Department of Mathematical Sciences Computer Center phone : (406) 243-2607 (406) 243-5455 UUCP : ... ! ucbvax ! ucdavis ! u-mt ! lane ------------------------------ From: "Josh Sirota [wizard]" Subject: Venix/Xenix for the AT Date: 20 Dec 85 16:24:44 GMT Can anyone out there give some advice about getting Venix or Xenix for the AT? I have recently gotten a Televideo AT, and I have a 30 MB disk. Has anyone tried either one on the Televideo, or does anyone have any strong feelings one way or the other? And how much do they cost? Thanks. Josh Sirota lsrhs!jss@{bbncca,wjh12}.arpa {genrad!grkermit,maynard}!lsrhs!jss ------------------------------ From: bcking@faust.uucp Subject: HELP: nroff <-> WordPerfect Date: 19 Dec 85 20:26:00 GMT We need a way to exchange WordPerfect files and nroff files. Does anybody know how to do this? What we have is a bunch of PCs running WordPerfect (we like it a lot, especially 4.1), and a bunch of minis (VAXen and PDP-11s running Unix) that know about nroff/troff. And a couple of Imagen laser printers. It sure would be nice to be able to take an nroff input file, mess with it using WordPerfect and print the result on the laser printer. And then take a WordPerfect file, send it to the VAX and add a bunch more text to it, then troff it to the laser printer. We'd like to preserve formatting info (like indents and stuff) and "hard" pagination and RETURN, but put off line wrapping, word spacing, page numbering, etc. What may make this a little easier is that WordPerfect already has a convert program that can deal with WordStar, DCA and DIF. == Christine King {ihnp4,ima}!inmet!bcking Intermetrics, Inc. 733 Concord Avenue Cambridge MA 02138 ------------------------------ From: Bob Erickson Subject: Need Some Coprocessor Pointers and Information Date: 20 Dec 85 15:47:49 GMT I'm looking for the following combination of hardware and software to plug into a PC/XT/AT system. A coprocessor board with either a 32XXX or 68XXX microprocessor. Minimum of 2MB of memory. Berkeley UNIX 4.2. Full TCP/IP ethernet support using either a smart 3COM or Excelan board. I would appreciate any information on anyone making such a combination. ========================================================== Be Company: HHB-Softron 1000 Wyckoff Ave. Mahwah NJ 07430 201-848-8000 UUCP address: {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!bob ------------------------------ From: Tom Reingold Subject: Xmodem Protocol Description Date: 21 Dec 85 03:32:51 GMT Here it is. I got it from a bulletin board. I don't remember which one. Tom Reingold New York City XMODEM File Transfer Protocol By Larry Jordan When transferring files between computers using the telephone system, there is always the chance that electrical noise will result in data transmission errors. To ensure proper transfer of files it is necessary to detect data transmission errors and to retransmit data that contains errors. Most people think that asynchronous parity error detection provides that capability. It does not. Parity error detection does tell you when a data transfer error has occurred, but it is up to you to retransmit the data to correct errors. The problem is that parity error detection is not actually performed by most IBM PC communication packages. If a package does perform the error detection, it may not inform you of errors in such a way that you know to immediately retransmit the data. ASCOM, for example, places an asterisk in a file where parity errors are detected, but you may not realize the errors occurred until long after the file is transferred. To ensure "error-free" data transfer you need a protocol file transfer technique. Andrew Fluegelman has added such a technique to PC-TALK.III called the XMODEM protocol. A protocol is a set of rules and conventions that apply to a specific area of communications that allow participants to properly communicate regardless of the hardware brand or software package being used. The protocol file transfer is a set of rules for transferring files which specifies a set of ASCII handshaking characters and the sequence of handshaking required to perform certain file transfer functions. Protocol handshaking signals allow communication software to transfer text, data and machine code files, and to perform sophisticated error-checking. The handicap in using protocol file transfer techniques is that the computers on both ends of the communications link must be using compatible software; there is no standard that controls these protocols and almost all communication packages that have a protocol file transfer option use a protocol unique to that package. This means that a business or group of people must standardize its microcomputer communications software to take advantage of protocol transfers. The Ward Christensen XMODEM protocol is one specific file transfer protocol that may become a default standard in personal communications because of its widespread use on bulletin boards and because of its inclusion in low cost personal computer communication packages such as PC-TALK. It has not gained widespread acceptance in business communication packages partly because the protocol is public domain; most business communication package designers use unique protocols to force businesses to use their software on both ends of communication links. By providing you with this insight into protocol transfer and explaining in detail the operation of the XMODEM protocol, I hope to add momentum to the development of a "standard protocol" whether it be the XMODEM model or some other model. Users of communication software deserve a standard protocol that will allow them to use the technique with any microcomputer regardles of the software packages employed. The XMODEM protocol is illustrated in Figure 1. As you can see from that figure, XMODEM does not begin the transfer of data until the receiving computer signals the transmitting computer that it is ready to receive data. The Negative Acknowledge (NAK) character is used for this signal and is sent to the transmitting computer every 10 seconds until the file transfer begins. If the file transfer does not begin after 9 NAK's are sent, the process has to be manually restarted. After a NAK is received, the transmitting computer uses a Start of Header (SOH) character and two block numbers (a true block number followed by a 1's complement of the number) to signal the start of a 128-byte block of data to be transferred then sends the block followed by an error-checking checksum. The checksum is calculated by adding the ASCII values of each character in the 128 character block; the sum is then divided by 255 and the remainder is retained as the checksum. After each block of data is transferred, the receiving computer computes its own checksum and compares the result to the checksum received from the transmitting computer. If the two values are the same, the receiving computer sends an Acknowledge (ACK) character to tell the receiver to send the next sequential block. If the two values are not the same, the receiving computer sends the transmitter an NAK to request a retransmission of the last block This retransmission process is repeated until the block of data is properly received or until 9 attempts have been made to transmit the block. If the communications link is noisy, resulting in improper block transmission after 9 attempts, the file transfer is aborted. XMODEM uses two block numbers at the start of each block to be sure the same block is not transmitted twice because of a handshake character loss during the transfer. The receiving computer checks the transmitted block to be sure that it is the one requested and blocks that are retransmitted by mistake are thrown away. When all data has been successfully transmitted, the transmitting computer sends the receiver an End of Transmission (EOT) character to indicate the end of file. The XMODEM protocol offers the IBM PC several advantages over other protocols and file transfer methods. First, the protocol is in the public domain which makes it readily available for software designers to incorporate into a communications package. Second, the protocol is easy to implement using high level languages such as BASIC or Pascal. Third, the protocol only requires a 256-byte communication receive buffer which makes it attractive for IBM PC owners who only have 64K systems. Forth, the protocol allows a user to transfer non-ASCII 8-bit data files (i.e., COM, EXE and tokenized BASIC) between microcomputers because it calculates the end of a file based on file size and uses handshake signals to indicate the end of a file instead relying on an end of file marker character (control-Z) to terminate a file transfer. Fifth, XMODEM error-checking is superior to normal asynchronous parity error checking. The parity method of error-checking is 95% effective if the software on the receiving end checks for parity errors. XMODEM error-checking is 99.6% effective, and the software on the receiving end must check for errors. Parity errors detected also do not result in automatic retransmission of the bad data; XMODEM detected errors result in data retransmission until no errors are detected or until 9 retransmissions have been attempted. Finally, the protocol is used by many CP/M bulletin boards and having the protocol in a communications package allows the IBM PC user to receive error-checked files from these bulletin boards. Andrew Fluegelman has given the XMODEM protocol a real boost in the IBM PC world by including it in his package. He has also added significant power to the package by including the protocol Rumor has it that Don Withrow will soon add to the XMODEM momentum by adding it to his HOSTCOMM software package. Keep up the good work guys -- we will get a standard one way or the other! [This article was derived from material contained in a book written by Larry Jordan and Bruce Churchill to be published this Summer by The Brady Company. The article will also be in the 5th issue of PC World magazine.] XMODEM Protocol File Transfer Receiving Transmitting Computer Computer Ready to Ready to Receive Transmit | | | | |---------------------\NAK\--------------------->| | | |<------/SOH/Blk #1/Blk #1/Good Data/CkSum/------| | | |---------------------\ACK\--------------------->| | | |<------/SOH/Blk #2/Blk #2/Good Data/CkSum/------| | | |---------------------\ACK\--------------------->| | | |<------/SOH/Blk #3/Blk #3/Garbled Data/CkSum/---| | | |---------------------\NAK\--------------------->| | | |<------/SOH/Blk #3/Blk #3/Good Data/CkSum/------| | | |---------------------\ACK\--------------------->| | | |<--------------------/EOT/----------------------| | | |---------------------\ACK\--------------------->| | | V V File File Receipt Transmit Ends Ends Figure 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------- MODEM PROTOCOL OVERVIEW 1/1/82 by Ward Christensen. I will maintain a master copy of this. Please pass on changes or suggestions via CBBS/Chicago at (312) 545-8086, or by voice at (312) 849-6279. NOTE this does not include things which I am not familiar with, such as the CRC option implemented by John Mahr. Last Rev: (none) At the request of Rick Mallinak on behalf of the guys at Standard Oil with IBM P.C.s, as well as several previous requests, I finally decided to put my modem protocol into writing. It had been previously formally published only in the AMRAD newsletter. Table of Contents 1. DEFINITIONS 2. TRANSMISSION MEDIUM LEVEL PROTOCOL 3. MESSAGE BLOCK LEVEL PROTOCOL 4. FILE LEVEL PROTOCOL 5. DATA FLOW EXAMPLE INCLUDING ERROR RECOVERY 6. PROGRAMMING TIPS. -------- 1. DEFINITIONS. 01H 04H 05H 15H 18H -------- 2. TRANSMISSION MEDIUM LEVEL PROTOCOL Asynchronous, 8 data bits, no parity, one stop bit. The protocol imposes no restrictions on the contents of the data being transmitted. No control characters are looked for in the 128-byte data messages. Absolutely any kind of data may be sent - binary, ASCII, etc. The protocol has not formally been adopted to a 7-bit environment for the transmission of ASCII-only (or unpacked-hex) data , although it could be simply by having both ends agree to AND the protocol-dependent data with 7F hex before validating it. I specifically am referring to the checksum, and the block numbers and their ones- complement. Those wishing to maintain compatibility of the CP/M file structure, i.e. to allow modemming ASCII files to or from CP/M systems should follow this data format: * ASCII tabs used (09H); tabs set every 8. * Lines terminated by CR/LF (0DH 0AH) * End-of-file indicated by ^Z, 1AH. (one or more) * Data is variable length, i.e. should be considered a continuous stream of data bytes, broken into 128-byte chunks purely for the purpose of transmission. * A CP/M "peculiarity": If the data ends exactly on a 128-byte boundary, i.e. CR in 127, and LF in 128, a subsequent sector containing the ^Z EOF character(s) is optional, but is preferred. Some utilities or user programs still do not handle EOF without ^Zs. * The last block sent is no different from others, i.e. there is no "short block". -------- 3. MESSAGE BLOCK LEVEL PROTOCOL Each block of the transfer looks like: <255-blk #><--128 data bytes--> in which: = 01 hex = binary number, starts at 01 increments by 1, and wraps 0FFH to 00H (not to 01) <255-blk #> = blk # after going thru 8080 "CMA" instr, i.e. each bit complemented in the 8-bit block number. Formally, this is the "ones complement". = the sum of the data bytes only. Toss any carry. -------- 4. FILE LEVEL PROTOCOL ---- 4A. COMMON TO BOTH SENDER AND RECEIVER: All errors are retried 10 times. For versions running with an operator (i.e. NOT with XMODEM), a message is typed after 10 errors asking the operator whether to "retry or quit". Some versions of the protocol use , ASCII ^X, to cancel transmission. This was never adopted as a standard, as having a single "abort" character makes the transmission susceptible to false termination due to an or being corrupted into a and canceling transmission. The protocol may be considered "receiver driven", that is, the sender need not automatically re-transmit, although it does in the current implementations. ---- 4B. RECEIVE PROGRAM CONSIDERATIONS: The receiver has a 10-second timeout. It sends a every time it times out. The receiver's first timeout, which sends a , signals the transmitter to start. Optionally, the receiver could send a immediately, in case the sender was ready. This would save the initial 10 second timeout. However, the receiver MUST continue to timeout every 10 seconds in case the sender wasn't ready. Once into a receiving a block, the receiver goes into a one-second timeout for each character and the checksum. If the receiver wishes to a block for any reason (invalid header, timeout receiving data), it must wait for the line to clear. See "programming tips" for ideas Synchronizing: If a valid block number is received, it will be: 1) the expected one, in which case everything is fine; or 2) a repeat of the previously received block. This should be considered OK, and only indicates that the receivers got glitched, and the sender re-transmitted; 3) any other block number indicates a fatal loss of synchronization, such as the rare case of the sender getting a line-glitch that looked like an . Abort the transmission, sending a ---- 4C. SENDING PROGRAM CONSIDERATIONS. While waiting for transmission to begin, the sender has only a single very long timeout, say one minute. In the current protocol, the sender has a 10 second timeout before retrying. I suggest NOT doing this, and letting the protocol be completely receiver-driven. This will be compatible with existing programs. When the sender has no more data, it sends an , and awaits an , resending the if it doesn't get one. Again, the protocol could be receiver-driven, with the sender only having the high-level 1-minute timeout to abort. -------- 5. DATA FLOW EXAMPLE INCLUDING ERROR RECOVERY Here is a sample of the data flow, sending a 3-block message. It includes the two most common line hits - a garbaged block, and an reply getting garbaged. represents the checksum byte. SENDER RECEIVER times out after 10 seconds, <--- 01 FE -data- ---> <--- 02 FD -data- xx ---> (data gets line hit) <--- 02 FD -data- xx ---> <--- 03 FC -data- xx ---> (ack gets garbaged) <--- 03 FC -data- xx ---> ---> <--- -------- 6. PROGRAMMING TIPS. * The character-receive subroutine should be called with a parameter specifying the number of seconds to wait. The receiver should first call it with a time of 10, then and try again, 10 times. After receiving the , the receiver should call the character receive subroutine with a 1-second timeout, for the remainder of the message and the . Since they are sent as a continuous stream, timing out of this implies a serious like glitch that caused, say, 127 characters to be seen instead of 128. * When the receiver wishes to , it should call a "PURGE" subroutine, to wait for the line to clear. Recall the sender tosses any characters in its UART buffer immediately upon completing sending a block, to ensure no glitches were mis- interpreted. The most common technique is for "PURGE" to call the character receive subroutine, specifying a 1-second timeout, and looping back to PURGE until a timeout occurs. The is then sent, ensuring the other end will see it. * You may wish to add code recommended by Jonh Mahr to your character receive routine - to set an error flag if the UART shows framing error, or overrun. This will help catch a few more glitches - the most common of which is a hit in the high bits of the byte in two consecutive bytes. The comes out OK since counting in 1-byte produces the same result of adding 80H + 80H as with adding 00H + 00H. ------------------------------ From: Kerro Panille Subject: Picking a Data Base Package & Computer System Date: 20 Dec 85 22:28:33 GMT > I am looking for a multiuser or networked system which can: > > o Run very fast!! > o Handle databases with over 5000 records > with little to no change in acces time. > o Able to communicate with AT&T 3B2 with > little to no conversion. > > One particular system I have been looking at is the IBM AT. I also >am looking at the Tandy 1200HD which is rumored to between the IBM XT and ... > Some software packages I have been looking at are: ... > o PC/Focus - This by far is the most impressive software > packages I've seen yet. Purdue University had > this demonstrated in their proto-typing class. > Has anybody used this in the workplace? If so > how is it? I have had more experience with PC/FOCUS than I care to admit. I found it powerful, yet it didn't live up to the billing that Information Builders,Inc give it. (IBI wrote PC/FOCUS as well as it's companion for IBM mainframes, FOCUS) It is badly documented, technical questions are not answered by IBI at all - they don't even know their own product, ie. you get conflicting answers if you call more than once. Basically, they say it can do something that sounds great, but when you try it, you find out that it can only perform under VERY specific conditions. Hardly useful. Also, it's incredibly slow. At the price of $1500.00, it is NOT WORTH IT. At $200.00 it might be. -- Vince Hatem ---------------- A Bell Communications Research | UZI |----------|_ _ _\/ T Raritan River Software Systems Center | |----------| /\ & 444 Hoes Lane ---------------- ROGER GUTS T 4D-360 / /\ DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' Piscataway, NJ 08854 / / NECKTIES (201) 699-4869 /-----/ ...ihnp4!rruxo!vch TRUE GRIT MYSTERIES - The detective series for those who NEVER eat quiche! (WARNING - MAY BE EMOTIONALLY DISTURBING TO HAMSTER LOVERS) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 85 11:04 EST From: Hess@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: EGA Vert. Retrace Query? Anybody know what the secret is to getting vertical retrace interrupts (and horizontal retrace interrupts if that's possible) from an IBM EGA card running on an AT? Any suggestions or code fragments greatly appreciated, Brian (Hess@MIT-Multics) ------------------------------ From: "Kurt L. Reisler" Subject: How to get PC-HACK Date: 20 Dec 85 14:58:47 GMT In addition, the latest version of PC-HACK can be downloaded from FIDO 109/483 (Wash-A-RUG) at 703-359-6549. This is the latest version which supports VT-100 line graphics. Again, kudos to Don Kneller. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= _ The World's First / \ Whose dog is that? BBS Network /|oo \ I don't know, but the disk is yours. * FidoNet * (_| /_) _`@/_ \ _ | | \ \\ | (*) | \ )) ______ |__U__| / \// / Fido \ _//|| _\ / (________) (_/(_|(____/ (jm) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 85 15:59:08 EST From: Dan_Bower%RPI-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Multi-user DBMS packages > There are many out there for the PC that sort of work. Cornerstone is > single-user only, as is KMan. The authors of KMan put out a more complete > multiuser dbms called MDBS, but while looking for a dbms I got a long > disgusted message from a guy who said that it was so buggy he gave up. > John Levine, ima!johnl > Not so. There is a multi-user version of KnowledgeMan (actually 2; ver 1.07 and a oft-promised, well-advertised but as-yet undistributed ver 2. Supposedly ver 2 has more functions and more overhead, as well as a few bug fixes.) Multi-user Kman is available for a number of networks, as well as VAXen. Also just released is a Lattice C library of Kman database calls. As for the PC version of MDBS III, I have no experience. I have written some large applications in Kman. I find it more flexible than dBase III, espcially for security and command manipulation. However, to get decent speed for some functions, you either have write it in C or run it from a RAM Disk. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1985 17:56 MST From: "Frank J. Wancho" Subject: Using "cd" (or "cwd") with FTP to SIMTEL20 In the past few days, we finally tracked down and fixed a problem that caused some user FTP programs to appear to hang after doing a "cd" or "cwd" to a directory on our PD: structure. Sorry for the temporary inconvenience. --Frank ------------------------------ From: "cenkl@faron.research" Subject: Adding a Hard Disk to the AT... Date: 20 Dec 85 15:13:35 GMT The old IBM ATs (<= 20M hard disks) support 14 distinct hard disk drive types (1 - 14) with drive type 15 left open for user defined drives. Assuming that I have a drive that is not among the first 14, how do I enter the correct drive type entry (# of cylinders, # of heads, etc.) given that I know all of the necessary data? The Fall BYTE describing such a procedure is quite vague on this point. Where in ROM can the table of drive type entries be found on both the old and new ATs? Does anybody know which drives drive type 20 corresponds to under the new AT ROMs? Thanks in advance. Mike Cenkl (617)271-2364 faron!cenkl@mitre-bedford.arpa ------------------------------ From: Pierre Darmon Subject: "fp" Utility Needed Date: 21 Dec 85 23:38:47 GMT In article <131300006@ima.UUCP> johnl@ima.UUCP writes: > >/* Written 11:54 pm Dec 16, 1985 by mas@charm in ima:net.micro.pc */ >> I am looking for a utility program called " fp " or so. It creates " >> shared" directories for data files, quite similar to " path" for >> executable files. > There is a facility called search that does what you want. I am using it all the time on my AT. It's great. There is another called DPATH. I obtained both from a BBS in California. The # is (213) 459 6480. Pierre Darmon University of Rochester {allegra|decvax|seismo}!rochester!ur-tut!pier ------------------------------ From: Gerald Collins Subject: Xenix and News Date: 20 Dec 85 04:50:49 GMT We need a set of programs to run the news with. Our current system is a Plexus P/60 with Sys III and using readnews/postnews to handle our news processing. Does any one have any suggestions as to a news processor for Xenix. We currently use version 2.10.1 of readnews. We have 2.10.2 but have never brought it up. Is there a newer version of readnews and is it available PD. I wouldn't mind getting information on news processors for the Plexus also. Any news package would need to be PD for us to be able to use it. (News is very low priority as far as the front office is concerned.) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please mail all responses to this request as I do not get to read all these groups on a regular basis. Thanks. Gerald L. Collins [ihnp4|seismo]!wucs!afinitc!jlc ------------------------------ From: Ross Greenberg Subject: Cheap PC Clones... Date: 21 Dec 85 18:17:54 GMT For those that are interested, I have dealer prices on a decent PC clone: the Fountain PC. I'm willing to set up group buys for those that are interested. An example of pricing: PC/XT clone, 256K on the momma-board, AST-look-a-like with 384K, Hercules Look-a-like, 20Meg Seagate or similar (70-85 msec access time), 2 1/2 height floppies, decent monochrome monitor. Price: $1,650 + tax (NY) + shipping (or you can pick it up, NYC) Interested? Contact me at: ross m. greenberg ihnp4!allegra!phri!sysdes!greenber ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22-Dec-85 09:39:25 EDT From: David Farber Subject: Anyone out There Using MS Windows I would like to establish some cross talk on Windows and how to make the bloodie thing work "correctly: -- that is outside what the manual says . Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 85 13:51 EST From: Schmandt@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Tecmar Megafunction or Equivalent I am looking to speed up my XT with a large Ram-disk. In particular the Megafunction card from Tecmar seems at first glance potentially quite useful; 1 Meg plus memory with external power backup and software. Has anyone used this board? Is it what it appears to be? Does the ramdisk software allow any size of Ramdisk (as compared to the AST Rampage, which comes with software for 360K max)? Is there a better or cheaper board from some other source? Note: I crash the machine a lot, so the external power is essentia. Thanks in advance Chris Schmandt ------------------------------ From: Jim Williams Subject: PCjr Questions Date: 22 Dec 85 16:18:09 GMT I am helping some friends who have a PCjr and who want to upgrade it some. They have a jr with a disk drive, an extra 64K RAM card (total 128K) and an outboard parallel port. They want to add a second drive, more memory, and connect the serial port to the an external modem. To help them with this I need to know a few things that aren't in the documentation. Here's my list: 1. What is the pin-out of the 16-pin header connector for the serial port? I need to make a cable to go from that to a DB25 connector. 2. The internal drive has its drive select jumper on 1, not 0! If I add a second drive, how do I address it? As drive 2? 3? 0? 3. What is the best route for memory expansion? Tecmar? Conroy- LaPointe is one of the few mail-order places I have found that still advertizes PCjr stuff. Anybody dealt with these people? I advised my friends that the best thing to do would be to replace the existing 64K card with a larger one rather that go to an expansion chassis just to get the slots for extra memory, because the chassis are so expansive. Much thanks to any and all who can help me! Reply by mail to.. Jim \/\/illiams jim@maryland.ARPA seismo!umcp-cs!jim.UUCP ------------------------------ From: Kevin Hoskins Subject: Creating Commodore Files that can be read by MS or PC DOS Date: 20 Dec 85 16:26:16 GMT This could be of wide interest to those that use MS or PC DOS machines at work and have a C64 at home. The question is; Is there some way to program the Commodore 1541 disk drive to format a disk that can be read by MS or PC DOS? If so, then converting word processing files done on the C64 to Wordstar compatible files could be done. This would make it easy to do writing both at home and at work. This is a less expensive alternative to buying a PC. Anyone have any suggestions? Kevin P.S. With regards to my previous posting, I am still considering buying a PC compatible. But I would still like to know if the above is possible. (I feel that it is.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1985 22:23 O From: Mosh Subject: Software design tools Greetings! I am desparatley seeking a good software engineering and design tool for the IBM-PC. The only two I have heard of so far are Jackson (which I assume uses the Jackson method) and the other is Delta which is used in European mainframes but is also available on the PC. I would appreciate any clues on the names and performances on other programs on the market. ------------------------------ From: Raymund Galvin Subject: PCUNIX by WENDIN Date: 20 Dec 85 19:09:33 GMT Does anybody know anything about PCUNIX by WENDIN? The price is $49 and from the description in the ads (Nov and Dec Computer Language) it sounds "too good to be true". I realize this is only a unix look-a-like, NOT unix. How does this "operating system" affect programs written to run under MSDOS? Is it "true multitasking" and "multiuser" like their ads say? Or are the ads just a bunch of hype about another useless program? - Ray Galvin ------------------------------ From: Timothy D Margeson Subject: ATT DOS 2.11 Backup/Restore /P option Date: 21 Dec 85 10:12:41 GMT Hi netlandians Has anyone else out here had any experience or problems with the ATT PC-6300 computer when backing up files in subdirectories with ATT MS-DOS v. 2.11. I have seen the /P option crash no fewer than 3 100+kbyte files that were backed up across diskettes. Is this a bug in my version of MS-DOS? Has it been fixed? A bug in the hardware? Or? Please give me a call or reply before 12-22-85 via mail as my system will be down from 9:00pm PST 22-DEC-85 until 6:00am PST 7-JAN-86. In the meantime I am using Compaq MS-DOS v. 2.11 Backup and Restore utilities since they appear to work properly and do not cause abortions to the files on restoration. Thank you in advance, I really do appreciate any light that you can shed :-) ! -- Tim Margeson (206)253-5240 tektronix!tekigm!timothym @@ 'Who said that?' PO Box 3500 d/s C1-465 Vancouver, WA. 98665 ------------------------------ End of Info-IBMPC Digest ************************ -------