Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site bbncca.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!wanginst!bbncca!rrizzo From: rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) Newsgroups: net.motss Subject: Re: Re. Turning the other Cheek Message-ID: <1642@bbncca.ARPA> Date: Tue, 17-Dec-85 17:14:47 EST Article-I.D.: bbncca.1642 Posted: Tue Dec 17 17:14:47 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 20-Dec-85 02:17:23 EST References: <10900009@ada-uts.UUCP> Organization: Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Cambridge, Ma. Lines: 31 I don't mean to beat up on netters or clog this newsgroup with more flamish postings. However, I don't think anyone (except maybe K. Arndt, but I n-key all his articles) has accused anyone else of being a "bleeding heart" or has wanted to "cut" anyone's "balls off." The criticisms are valid ones. Characterizing punishment as "retribution" already stacks the deck somewhat, given the later term's emotional connotations. The notion of punishment involves much more than mere "vengeance," and is perhaps as psychologically and penally sophisticated as notions of rehabilita- tion. To always favor the latter as more enlightened is probably simply a prejudice, for there are situations where it's simply inappropriate to make it the major concern. I still find Vince's implicit notion of homophobia, as exemplified in phrases like "young people with no apparent homophobic attitudes" and "what possessed them to think that killing a fag was OK," unusual. And to treat a literal and a metaphorical idea of victimization with equal weight, ie the kids were "as much their own victims," particularly given the brutal and deliberate nature of this crime, strikes me as wrong-headed. Finally, effectiveness is not the only kind of consideration to include in making penal policy; morality is another & probably "ultimately" more important one. And official infliction of pain is not the only or even the leading moral issue. Cheers, Ron Rizzo