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Path: utzoo!lsuc!msb
From: msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Re: Re: north of the border
Message-ID: <974@lsuc.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 13-Dec-85 19:37:29 EST
Article-I.D.: lsuc.974
Posted: Fri Dec 13 19:37:29 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 13-Dec-85 19:46:03 EST
References: <2586@sunybcs.UUCP> <7300045@inmet.UUCP>
Reply-To: msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader)
Organization: Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto
Lines: 62
Summary: Still more on "America"

Randy Hudson (rgh@inmet.UUCP) writes:

> It is an act of simple courtesy to refer to people in the way they
> wish to be referred to.  Citizens of the United States of America
> refer to themselves, and to each other, as "Americans".  "America"
> means, in the USA, the USA ...

I quite agree.  However...

> Similarly, in this sort of conversation:
> 	 Q: Where are you from?
> 	 A: America.
> 	 Q: You mean, the United States?
> I trust the intent is not to be insulting or patronizing or
> pedagogic or simply anti-American, but it sure feels like that
> after the tenth time.  This dialogue implies that Q thinks that a Spaniard
> might reply "Europe" or "Eurasia" rather than "Spain", or that a
> Canadian or Brazilian might reply "America" rather than "Canada"
> or "Brazil" -- it's really hard for me to believe that Q really
> needs to ask the disambiguating question.

According to Paul Theroux (in "The Old Patagonian Express"*), when he
traveled in South America he found that there, "America" meant "South
America".  He was quite puzzled at first when he met someone who had
traveled "all around America" and had not been to New York, Los Angeles,
and so on.  (The other fellow was puzzled by Theroux asking about all those
places in the United States when he had said "America"...)
So if a Brazilian, or a Paraguayan or a Surinamian, figured you might
not know where his country was, they *might* reply with "America".
(Of course, if the reply is in perfect English, this interpretation is
pretty strained.  But what if it isn't?)

But then, in Britain, I observe that "America" may mean "the United States"
or it may mean "North America".  The latter usage is mostly from people
who don't really realize that Canada is a different country.  (For the
benefit of any such people who are reading this:  Canada is a different
country.  So there.)

Here in Canada, very few people ever say "America", though we call people
from the USA "Americans" because that's what they call themselves.
"America" is practically a nonword here.

What all of this leads to is another interpretation of the above Q&A.
When I go to Britain I don't ask for the elevator, but the lift; I don't
ask for the subway (which means something else), but the underground.
It's a courtesy and it should also make me easier to understand.

Now Q is thinking that A is trying to do this, and Q doesn't know what A
thinks Q thinks "America" means.  So Q asks for clarification.  Remember,
such a conversation would only occur between people who are just meeting,
and it would thus NOT be obvious if either one was trying to use the
other's vocabulary.

Of course, maybe Randy thinks it's unimaginable that an American would
adopt the courtesy of using another person's vocabulary.  Come to think
of it, he may have a point there! :-)

Mark Brader, Toronto, Canada
*I may have the title slightly wrong.

		"I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pedantic and that's just as good."
			-- D Gary Grady (<870@ecsvax.UUCP> in net.followup)