Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site uwmacc.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!pyramid!ut-sally!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!edwards
From: edwards@uwmacc.UUCP (mark edwards)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Re:Learn Japanese or bust.
Message-ID: <1809@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 16-Dec-85 10:09:43 EST
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.1809
Posted: Mon Dec 16 10:09:43 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 18-Dec-85 05:00:48 EST
References: <1791@uwmacc.UUCP> <839@h-sc1.UUCP>
Reply-To: edwards@uwmacc.UUCP (mark edwards)
Organization: UWisconsin-Madison Academic Comp Center
Lines: 100
Keywords: easy and difficult


 I originally wrote :
>> Best advice is quit while your ahead! I took the last 2 1/2 years 
>> [of Japanese] 
>> here. The work is equal to any of my senior level computer science 
>> classes ( Compilers, Operating Systems ....). [...]
>
In article <839@h-sc1.UUCP> breuel@h-sc1.UUCP (thomas breuel) writes:
>No, that is not good advice. Learning any foreign language is a
>rewarding experience, and it is likely to give you a new perspective on
>your own language and culture.
>
>I also disagree that Japanese is in any sense more 'difficult' than,
>say, French or German. Certainly, you can learn how to 'get by' in
>Germanic or Romanic languages much more easily than in Japanese. 

>years, he could probably still be spotted easily as a foreigner in even
>the simplest dialogue, 

  You are spotted as a foreigner (if you are a caucasian) before you
attempt to speak. On occassion, even if you are speaking Japanese to
a native, the person will say "no speaking English", meaning that he
thinks that because you are a foreigner you are speaking English !!!

>The grammar of colloquial Japanese is certainly not responsible for its
>reputation as a 'difficult' language. It is, in fact, simpler than the
>grammar of most European languages. 

 No disagreement here.

>Likewise, there are, of course, features of the Japanese language with
>which foreigners have considerable problems. Most of these problems
>probably relate to the phonetic structure of the language. The number
>of syllables used in spoken Japanese is very small. This has
>(presumably) led to the introduction of a large number of multisyllabic
>words and, on the other hand, to the presence of a large number of
>homophones.  Perhaps to make up for the length of the words, Japanese
>is spoken very rapidly, and, in addition, a number of euphonic
>changes are made. For the beginner, spoken Japanese is therefore
>difficult to follow and difficult to pronounce at the 'correct' speed.

 I never had any problem with the phonetic structure. The speed is no
 greater than any other language, it just sounds faster because you
 don't understand it. Homophones are difficult but mostly when you 
 read Japanese with out the Kanji (Chinese characters). If You are
 speaking it, usually there is some contextual clue that gives the
 correct interpretations of it.

>The frequent complaint that the use of Chinese characters in the
>Japanese written language makes it 'impossible' to learn is, on the
>other hand, not correct in my opinion. Chinese characters (Kanji) are
>composed from a relatively small number of constituents (radicals) with
>semantic and phonetic content. From the radicals present in a Chinese
>character, one can often not only derive its meaning, but also its
>pronounciation.  Admittedly, the formation of Chinese characters is
>irregular, but probably not more so than the spelling and composition
>from roots of English words.
>
  This is the root of the problem in Japanese and why I say quit while
  you are ahead. KANJI is probably the reason that makes Japanese so
  hard to learn. In order to read the Japanese newspaper a Japanese
  native child must go as far as 9th grade to get the basic Kanji,
  into high school to get the rest of the 2000 general Kanji just
  to learn to read the langauge!!!!! This is not true with english
  or probably any other western langauge. ( It is often heard noted
  about the American with the 6th grade Education.)

  Kanji can not be seperated from Japanese. If one tried Japanese for
  the japanese would be equally impossible. The problem is the 
  homonyms. Look in a Japanese - english dictionary under the k's
  for koo, kikan, kikai, .....

  A single Chinese character in chinese has one phonetic reading.

  A single Chinese character in Japanese has usually at least two
  and the common (irregular or sort of) characters have multiple
  readings !!!!  Some are often bizarre. Many of the Japanese
  versions of the characters have lost their original meanings.

  If you are into abuse, try learning peoples names, place names
  and historical names in Japanese. Many of these are no longer
  general kanji. 

>Altogether, I would say: YES, go ahead an learn Japanese. If you can,
>enroll in a good language course taught by native speakers. If you
>can't, then try to learn the pronounciation from tapes and records.
>Get some good books on grammar and writing (there are some listed at
>the end of this article). Make notes in Japanese, try to read Japanese
>newspapers, &c. When you talk to people in English, think about how you
>would have expressed yourself in Japanese.
>

 Thomas admits to being a 1st year student (1st year first semester ??).
 Typically the first year is the confidence builder. Especially the
 1st semester. The 3rd and the 4th year are what seperates the gung ho
 from the curious. Not many surive past the second year . Even fewer
 after the third year. 

 Whats my execuse ? Two years in Japan (knew nothing before I went).
 (nihonjin no kanajo ga iru mo.)