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From: solomon@aero.ARPA (Steve Solomon)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Call for Proper Noun Idioms
Message-ID: <161@aero.ARPA>
Date: Thu, 19-Dec-85 15:52:59 EST
Article-I.D.: aero.161
Posted: Thu Dec 19 15:52:59 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 21-Dec-85 04:56:22 EST
Reply-To: solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon)
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Lines: 63
Keywords: Proper Nouns, Idioms

I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives. The
classic English examples,

(1) It's Greek to me.
and the VP
(2) To carry coals to Newcastle

convey exotic language (a sort of meta-semantic variable) and
superfluousness, respectively.

German data:                            (Gloss)

(3) Es kommt mir Spanisch vor.          (1) It's Spanish to me.
and
(4) Eulen nach Athen tragen             (2) To carry owls to Athens

The burning question is, in the case of (1) and (3), what constitutes
the notion of 'exotic' in different languages?

Hebrew for (1) is 'Chinese' and I suspect many languages also use the
metaphor of 'Chinese' to express some incomprehensible vernacular within
a language or generic foreign language.

Two variants of (3) are

(5) Es kommt mir vor wie Spanische Doerfer.
        (It's like Spanish villages to me)
and
(6) Es kommt mir vor wie Boehmische Doerfer.    (Bohemian villages)

What are some other data in other languages? Speakers of Scandinavian
(incl. Finnish) African, and Asian languages, let's hear your input!

(It wouldn't surprise me if Russian for (1) were "It's Russian to me"
since that part of the world is "an enigma wrapped in a puzzle shrouded
behind a mystery." :-)  But it's probably Armenian instead.)

On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,
i.e. without a meaning of punishment (Methinks Siberia is universal) or
boredom if one were sent there?
        English         (7) ?(Outer) Mongolia
                        (8) *(Northern) Slobovia
        Hebrew          (9) Honolulu
(7) comes close, and seems to be simply far removed, but does convey a hint
of punishment (hence the '?').
(8) is semantically equivalent to 'Siberia'

I remember seeing as a kid the film "Krakatoa, East of Java" which
became, for a while, an exotic place idiom.

Can we get more data?

At the risk of singing to the choir, can we also get data in other
languages (even Bambara would be appreciated) for idioms that convey
superfluousness ("coals to Newcastle")?

Is the German "owls to Athens," aside from being alliterative, from
another source, such as Latin, whence "cum granno salis" --> "with a
grain of salt" and "mit einem Koernchen Salz"?

Steve Solomon
solomon@aero.UUCP
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Path: sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!aero!solomon
From: solomon@aero.ARPA (Steve Solomon)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Call for Proper Noun Idioms
Message-ID: <161@aero.ARPA>
Date: 19 Dec 85 20:52:59 GMT
Date-Received: 19 Dec 85 23:06:33 GMT
Reply-To: solomon@aero.UUCP (Steve Solomon)
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Lines: 63
Keywords: Proper Nouns, Idioms

I am interested in idiomatic expressions in English and other languages
that uses proper nouns, from linguistic and cultural perspectives. The
classic English examples,

(1) It's Greek to me.
and the VP
(2) To carry coals to Newcastle

convey exotic language (a sort of meta-semantic variable) and
superfluousness, respectively.

German data:                            (Gloss)

(3) Es kommt mir Spanisch vor.          (1) It's Spanish to me.
and
(4) Eulen nach Athen tragen             (2) To carry owls to Athens

The burning question is, in the case of (1) and (3), what constitutes
the notion of 'exotic' in different languages?

Hebrew for (1) is 'Chinese' and I suspect many languages also use the
metaphor of 'Chinese' to express some incomprehensible vernacular within
a language or generic foreign language.

Two variants of (3) are

(5) Es kommt mir vor wie Spanische Doerfer.
        (It's like Spanish villages to me)
and
(6) Es kommt mir vor wie Boehmische Doerfer.    (Bohemian villages)

What are some other data in other languages? Speakers of Scandinavian
(incl. Finnish) African, and Asian languages, let's hear your input!

(It wouldn't surprise me if Russian for (1) were "It's Russian to me"
since that part of the world is "an enigma wrapped in a puzzle shrouded
behind a mystery." :-)  But it's probably Armenian instead.)

On a related note, what are the places thought of as neutrally exotic,
i.e. without a meaning of punishment (Methinks Siberia is universal) or
boredom if one were sent there?
        English         (7) ?(Outer) Mongolia
                        (8) *(Northern) Slobovia
        Hebrew          (9) Honolulu
(7) comes close, and seems to be simply far removed, but does convey a hint
of punishment (hence the '?').
(8) is semantically equivalent to 'Siberia'

I remember seeing as a kid the film "Krakatoa, East of Java" which
became, for a while, an exotic place idiom.

Can we get more data?

At the risk of singing to the choir, can we also get data in other
languages (even Bambara would be appreciated) for idioms that convey
superfluousness ("coals to Newcastle")?

Is the German "owls to Athens," aside from being alliterative, from
another source, such as Latin, whence "cum granno salis" --> "with a
grain of salt" and "mit einem Koernchen Salz"?

Steve Solomon
solomon@aero.UUCP