Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site brl-tgr.ARPA Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!whuxl!whuxlm!akgua!gatech!seismo!brl-tgr!matt From: matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion,net.nlang.india Subject: Re: Arab tolerance Message-ID: <1105@brl-tgr.ARPA> Date: Mon, 30-Dec-85 10:05:31 EST Article-I.D.: brl-tgr.1105 Posted: Mon Dec 30 10:05:31 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 31-Dec-85 22:58:24 EST References: <460@mhuxm.UUCP> <740@whuxl.UUCP> <10822@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <384@epistemi.UUCP> <2336@sdcc6.UUCP> Organization: Ballistic Research Lab Lines: 135 Xref: lsuc net.politics:2669 net.religion:589 net.nlang.india:584 > > >Even at best the > > >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous > > >humiliation by Islamic law. [C. MARTILLO] > It is simply outrageous to see Mr. Martillo allow himself to speak > so ignorantly about Islam. Have you at least read the Qur'an , > Mr. Martillo, to be able to express an opinion about Islam ? Maybe yes, maybe no. But Matt Rosenblatt has read the Qur'an, or at least an English translation thereof. > The contrary is absolutely obvious, because I challenge you to > produce one single verse from the Qur'an ,or one single quotation > of the prophet Muhammad (the second source of Islamic juridiction ) > that shows that Islam gives second class > status to non muslims. [N. GUESSOUM] Aw, c'mon! Can we find anything in the Scriptures telling Jews how to make the phylacteries they wear? Can we find a directive to use separate dishes for milk and meat? Rules for the order of daily prayers? Of course not -- all that is in the Talmud (Oral Law) and the Halacha. Sure, you won't find explicit rules for second-class citizenship for Jews in the Qur'an, or in the writings of the Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace upon him and his Companions). But what does the Shari'a say about Jews? What kind of Islamic law was derived from a passage like: "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." [Qur'an, Chapter 5 (The Table)] The mixed couples living together without benefit of marriage in Israel consist of a Muslim man and a Jewish woman. How come there are no Muslim women living with Jewish men? What HAPPENS to a Muslim woman who goes to live with a Jewish man in Israel? Again, what kind of Shari'a arises from: "Because of their iniquity, We forbade the Jews good things which were formerly allowed them; because time after time they have debarred others from the path of Allah; because they practice usury -- although they were forbidden it -- and cheat others of their possessions. We have prepared a stern chastisement for those of them that disbelieve. But those of them that have deep learning and those that truly believe in what has been revealed to you [i.e., Muhammad] and to other prophets before you; who attend to their prayers and pay the alms-tax and have faith in Allah and the Last Day -- these shall be richly rewarded." [Qur'an, Chapter 4 (Women)]. And never mind the WRITINGS -- what do the ACTIONS of the Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace upon him and his Companions) say about first-class citizenship for Jews? Here's one opinion: > 1) When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, the > first thing he did after he was declared ruler of the city > by the muslim community, was to assure the large Jewish > community there ,IN WRITING , that Islam not only respects > their religious traditions and laws, but makes it an article > of faith for the muslims to believe in Moses as a true > prophet of God, and therefore no harm would be done to > the Jews as long as they too respect the muslim > community. They ( Muhammad and the Jews of Medina ) went > even further : they signed a pact of mutual defense to > defend each other in case an outside force came to > attack the city. [N. GUESSOUM] But what kind of tolerance did he show to the Jewish tribe of Qurayza in 627 C.E. when he raided them? Eight hundred men were beheaded (only one Jew abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and children were sold as slaves! Over and over again, the Qur'an makes clear that the Jews and Christians (People of the Book) who will come out with a whole coat will be precisely those who accept Islam: "If the People of the Book accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight. If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is revealed to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from above and from beneath." [Qur'an, Chapter 5] And what about: "You will please neither the Christians nor the Jews unless you follow their faith." [Qur'an, Chapter 2 (The Cow)]. How does that stack up against the Christian teaching that "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 14:6] and against the Jewish teaching that "The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come." > Or if you have some hatred about Islam, Mr. Martillo, > why don't you tell us ? [N. GUESSOUM] Nothing in the Jewish Scriptures or Oral Law says bad things about Islam or Muslims, who weren't even around in 600 C.E. when the Talmud was closed, ten years before the Prophet got his Call from the angel Gabriel. To my knowledge, Jews are not running around begging for citizenship in Algeria (Can they get it, Mr. Guessoum?) or even permission to reside in Jordan or Sa'udi Arabia (Can they get THAT, sir?). They just want to live in peace, in a Jewish State, on the land that G-d promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants forever. They do not believe that Israel and its capital Jerusalem are part of the Dar al Islam. > > > In any case my point was that until > > >Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is > > >unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern > > >world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. > > >[C. MARTILLO] Unfortunately, *modern* standards are based on the so-called "Enlightenment," generated by a bunch of European atheists about 260 years before my time. By these standards, Jews should not be able to rule territories according to Torah Law. It is presumptuous to say that Islam is unacceptable in the modern world. Rather say to them what King David said to some bunch of pagans that tried to rule over Jewish land: "Wilt thou not possess what Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?" The Muslims rule Iran and much of the Arab world, and that's fine with me. The Christians rule "Christendom," which includes Spain and England and, yes, even the United States of America, and that, too, is fine with me. Atheist believers in the "Enlightenment" rule New York, Massachusetts and California -- they violate the Seven Noahide Laws and they will eventually get theirs. Let Muslims rule over territories -- but not over Jews or Christians. And not over any of the Promised Land -- not one square inch! -- Matt Rosenblatt