Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxd.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxd!rlr From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion,net.nlang.india Subject: Re: Arab tolerance Message-ID: <2364@pyuxd.UUCP> Date: Tue, 31-Dec-85 14:12:26 EST Article-I.D.: pyuxd.2364 Posted: Tue Dec 31 14:12:26 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 1-Jan-86 02:36:04 EST References: <460@mhuxm.UUCP> <740@whuxl.UUCP> <10822@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <384@epistemi.UUCP> <2336@sdcc6.UUCP> <1105@brl-tgr.ARPA> Organization: Whatever we're calling ourselves this week Lines: 115 Xref: watmath net.politics:12732 net.religion:8650 net.nlang.india:949 > Aw, c'mon! Can we find anything in the Scriptures telling Jews how to > make the phylacteries they wear? Can we find a directive to use separate > dishes for milk and meat? Rules for the order of daily prayers? Of > course not -- all that is in the Talmud (Oral Law) and the Halacha. > Sure, you won't find explicit rules for second-class citizenship for > Jews in the Qur'an, or in the writings of the Prophet (Allah's blessing > and peace upon him and his Companions). [ROSENBLATT] Boy, by this reasoning you can't win. If you prove it's not in there, Rosenblatt will say "well, OF COURSE, it's not in there, it's in their oral tradition!" > "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. > They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their > friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not > guide the wrongdoers." [Qur'an, Chapter 5 (The Table)] Sounds awful similar to "thou shalt have no other gods before me" and other passages discouraging association with those awful other religions in the bible. > But what kind of tolerance did he show to the Jewish tribe of Qurayza in > 627 C.E. when he raided them? Eight hundred men were beheaded (only > one Jew abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and > children were sold as slaves! The same kind of tolerance the Israelites showed the native inhabitants of Canaan when they took their land away. (Oh, I'm sorry, there was a justification for it: god said they should. Or so they said...) > Over and over again, the Qur'an makes clear that the Jews and Christians > (People of the Book) who will come out with a whole coat will be precisely > those who accept Islam: > "If the People of the Book accept the true faith and keep from > evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens > of delight. If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is > revealed to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from > above and from beneath." [Qur'an, Chapter 5] Again, no different an attitude than those perpetuated by other religions. > And what about: > "You will please neither the Christians nor the Jews > unless you follow their faith." [Qur'an, Chapter 2 (The Cow)]. This would seem to be an indictment (and an accurate one) of the intolerance of the OTHER religions. You will not please them unless you follow their faith. Sounds pretty accurate to me. > How does that stack up against the Christian teaching that > "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 14:6] > and against the Jewish teaching that > "The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come." You know, Matt, once, after you had told us all in net.abortion about your legal training, I didn't really believe you were actually qualified to be a lawyer. But now that I've seen this example (take a "bad" quote from the Quran, and a couple of "good" quotes from other religious texts, and "prove" that Islam is a heinous religion), I can honestly that I believe you to have the qualifications to be a lawyer. :-( >> Or if you have some hatred about Islam, Mr. Martillo, >> why don't you tell us ? [N. GUESSOUM] > Nothing in the Jewish Scriptures or Oral Law says bad things about Islam or > Muslims, who weren't even around in 600 C.E. when the Talmud was closed, > ten years before the Prophet got his Call from the angel Gabriel. Well, it seems the fact that the Talmud was "closed" before Islam existed explains why it wasn't mentioned, no? Besides, the Hebrews had those awful Baal worshippers to talk about. >>>> In any case my point was that until >>>>Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is >>>>unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern >>>>world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. >>>>[C. MARTILLO] > Unfortunately, *modern* standards are based on the so-called "Enlightenment," > generated by a bunch of European atheists about 260 years before my time. Yes, we know, Matt. You don't like this "modern" "garbage", which promotes individual human rights and such, so you smear it by calling it "so-called" (do you take care of traffic tickets?). > The Muslims rule Iran and much of the Arab world, and that's fine with me. > The Christians rule "Christendom," which includes Spain and England and, > yes, even the United States of America, and that, too, is fine with me. > Atheist believers in the "Enlightenment" rule New York, Massachusetts > and California -- they violate the Seven Noahide Laws and they will > eventually get theirs. Let Muslims rule over territories -- but not > over Jews or Christians. And not over any of the Promised Land -- not > one square inch! How about NOBODY ruling or controlling ANYBODY'S lives ANYWHERE? Naaah! I'll agree that the worst practitioners of Islam have done and continue to do some heinous and awful things. But to claim that for this reason your religion is somehow better than theirs strikes me as stupid and arrogant. Hey, Islam is a young religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, younger than Christianity by some 700 years or so. What was Christianity like 700 years ago? What was Judaism like before that? Give those awful "savage" Moslems some time to catch up to the standards of modern religion. With Identity Christianity, radical impositional fundamentalism, and other modern truly enlightened intolerances found in both Judaism AND Christianity. You'll find that, in reality, they're running neck-a-neck with you in the race of religious evolution. (And by the way, which Noachide laws am I (and those other awful "atheist" types) breaking? And can you represent me at the trial? :-) -- And now, a hidden satanic message: _ 9L|^6| _ W6Vn|na| 622 (HINT: Hold it upside down in front of a mirror.) Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr