Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site jhunix.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!cmcl2!seismo!umcp-cs!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa From: ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Democracy, Wars, Imperialism and Nationalism:I Message-ID: <1470@jhunix.UUCP> Date: Wed, 18-Dec-85 12:59:55 EST Article-I.D.: jhunix.1470 Posted: Wed Dec 18 12:59:55 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 22-Dec-85 02:53:18 EST References: <432@ssc-bee.UUCP> <841@whuxl.UUCP> <1280@jhunix.UUCP> Reply-To: ins_akaa@jhunix.ARPA (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) Organization: Johns Hopkins Univ. Computing Ctr. Lines: 66 In article <442@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >Continuing the discussion of democracy, imperialism and wars. >>> tim sevener >> kenneth arromdee >> When, in the 20th century, did a democracy invade another democracy? >> Kenneth Arromdee >> >1)If you mean when did an already independent democratic nation attack >> > another independent democratic nation then this is going to be made >> > more rare in the 20th century since by that time the majority of >> > the world was under the domination of European colonialism ... >> > In having such colonies to begin with it should be quite obvious >> > that Britain and France had to engage in numerous military interventions >> > and invasions in the colonialized world. ... Therefore countless >> > struggles for independence from Britain and France can be considered >> > wars in the direction of greater democracy *opposed* by democracies... >> Question: what is your definition of war? If you count a decoloni- >> zation struggle as a war, that definition would logically lead you to >> positions that as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) you do not >> support. Specifically, the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe and the >> struggles against it, and Afghanistan, etc... must count as wars the blame >> for whom is on the Soviets. >I never said that the Soviets were not to blame. I make no apologies or >excuses for the awful Soviet record and I have stated *MANY* times my >opposition to their domination of Eastern Europe and their invasion of >Afghanistan. When >What does that have to do with the major thesis: >that *democracies* have engaged in such wars many times? That the British >Empire was built upon countless invasions and subjugations of other >nations? That France attempted to regain their Indochinese colony after >WW II and the US provided help in that endeavor? 1) You did note I set a limit of the 20th century. Many things were done centuries ago that aren't generally acceptable today; for instance most countries, at least officially, don't accept slavery. We don't see many religious crusades either. 2) As far as I can remember the war in Vietnam was mostly in support of South Vietnam and not France--France pulled out relatively early. It had very little to do with colonialism past that point. Furthermore, if the US were not a democracy, we might even still be there. In a democracy, you can elect out someone whose keeping you in a war, and the person you elect knows that if they don't exit the war they'll be elected out too. 3) I notice you left out your Austria-Hungary-was-a-democracy argument; do you concede that you were wrong and at least Hungary was _not_ a democracy? >I never said that non-democratic countries were necessarily peaceful >or never engaged in War as a means of national policy. I have questioned >the myth that *democratic* countries never fight against each other or >never engage in agressive wars of domination over other countries. > tim sevener whuxn!orb You haven't shown any even purported examples of democratic countries "fight(ing) against each other". Can you do so (again limiting it to the 20th century?) -- If you know the alphabet up to 'k', you can teach it up to 'k'. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa ...allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_akaa