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From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: You ain't Done Nothin' if You ain't been called a Red:
Message-ID: <917@mmintl.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 19-Dec-85 18:41:44 EST
Article-I.D.: mmintl.917
Posted: Thu Dec 19 18:41:44 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 23-Dec-85 05:49:02 EST
References: <756@whuxl.UUCP> <29200244@uiucdcs> <362@whuts.UUCP>
Reply-To: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams)
Organization: Multimate International, E. Hartford, CT
Lines: 63

In article <441@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>> The only problem with this article is that it assumes the U.S. to be way
>> over on the right hand side of the political spectrum.  There is another
>> insult (besides calling one's opponent a Communist) which has been used
>> almost as often in this country, at least in the last 40 years.  That is
>> to call one's opponent a Fascist.
>> 
>> Now can we dispense with name calling and just discuss the issues?
>> Frank Adams                           ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
>
>1)I have tried to refrain from name-calling.  But some others on the net
>  accuse those who want to stop the arms race and preparations for War
>  on both sides of "wishing to run the Commie flag up the flagpole".
>  This is nothing new as I have pointed out: Sakharov and Lech Walesa,
>  who criticize their own communist countries' policies are accused of
>  being "unpatriotic" too.

I didn't accuse you of name-calling, although it may have sounded like it.
In fact, I generally find your articles quite civil, even when (as is
rather frequent) I disagree.  I haven't noticed many people accusing
anyone here of being communists; what there are can be better ignored, I
think.
 
>2)Tell me, Frank, when were "fascists" or "suspected fascists" either sent
>  to jail or blacklisted for the rest of their careers as "Reds" were
>  in the 1950's, or as "Reds' were during the Palmer Raids during WW I?

I don't know if the actions taken quite meet your criteria, but it certainly
wasn't safe to claim to be a Fascist in the middle 40's.  I did not
claim that government action had fallen equally on left and right; it
hasn't.  Nor did I claim that the government, through the years, has
been perfectly centrist.  It has in fact had a right-wing bias; but it
has, overall, been more centrist than right-wing.

>  While this country certainly has a very strong progressive tradition
>  which dates back to such forward-looking thinkers as Jefferson and other
>  founding fathers, it is also the bastion of unrestrained capitalism.
>  As such there have been no qualms about massacring union members
>  or jailing socialists as was done during the Palmer Raids.

This last sentence is just false.  These events occurred, but they prompted
strong reactions (especially the former -- nations become less rational in
wartime.  There was little resistance to interning Japanese-Americans in
WWII, either).  Some of us think capitalism is progressive.  If by unre-
strained capitalism you mean free to use force against peaceful enemies,
that has happened here; but it has never been accepted.

The unions at that point were not above a little violence themselves.
Strikebreakers were routinely beaten up.  Even today, scabs must fear
personal violence.  Now, I do think the unions were mostly right in the
first half of this century, and I do not excuse the violence against them.
But it is intellectual dishonesty to look only at the violence against
them, and ignore the violence they committed.

>  On the other hand when our own President quotes from the
>  John Birch Society as an authoritative source on Lenin very few give
>  it a second thought.

Very few people give a second thought to anything our current president
says.  On the whole, I am inclined to regard this as fortunate.

Frank Adams                           ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International    52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108