Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site duke.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!pesnta!amd!amdcad!decwrl!decvax!mcnc!duke!crm From: crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Subject: Re: Feminism & SF: Comments from Brett Slocum Message-ID: <6721@duke.UUCP> Date: Tue, 17-Dec-85 11:32:44 EST Article-I.D.: duke.6721 Posted: Tue Dec 17 11:32:44 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 21-Dec-85 09:05:16 EST References: <743@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> Reply-To: crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) Organization: Duke University Lines: 82 In article <743@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA writes: >From: Anthony Aristar > > ... Larry Niven's >writing is a good example here: strong female characters occur, but they're >strong in ways which don't contradict traditional concepts of maleness and >femaleness. Teela of the Ringworld Series is *lucky*, not good at swinging >a battle-ax. Only when she metamorphosizes into a protector, with a >dramatically enhanced body and altered psychology, does physical violence >become her forte. I don't think this example applies -- I can't think of a SINGLE EXAMPLE in any of Niven's writing where *any* of the lead characters are good at swinging a battle-ax. So what if Teela can't either? It tells us that Niven doesn't much care for characters who get ahead by swinging a battle-ax. Should he therefore write one who is female just to satisfy you that he isn't a chauvinist? Feh. >So therefore, my earlier question remains unanswered: >what exactly was it that stopped this darker side of fandom from showing >its hairy, macho face? My suspicion is that it is social pressure. An interesting point about this: the only people I've ever known who would admit to being John Norman fans at a con (this after *gasp* like 12 years of active fandom) are women. My hypothesis is that this is because the males who read the things don't have the nerve to admit it -- unless the only people who read them and go to conventions are women, which seems the weaker hypothesis. And by the way, watch it with the sexist references: you've implicitly associated the "darker side of fandom" with the male sex alone -- men are the only persons who commonly have hairy faces. > >>In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what a 5' >>6" martial artist can do against a group of the most awesome brawlers with >>weapons? I have, and I treat them with respect (male or female). > >.... A >Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or gymnastics than a real >fight. For obvious reasons (e.g. you'd decimate the MA community) you >aren't allowed to land real blows. You're judged on things like speed, >technique, etc, and since women tend to be quicker and more supple than >men, they do pretty well. .... >The only real fight I've ever seen between a >martial-arts trained woman and an untrained but aggressive man was resolved >in a brutish but effective manner -- he used his hands to keep her away, >(she hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in the meantime), then he grappled >her, and fell on her. Then, as you say, her training was gotten in a dancing class. This is a real problem with martial arts in general -- you can teach the student the moves, but will it work for real. Luckily, most martial arts training results in being able to avoid the fight entirely. But it *is* likely that this occurred because she was unwilling to take the chance of damaging the guy -- afraid to hurt him. This *is* probably due to the fact that she was a woman, but on a social level rather than physical. >So my earlier comment stands: SF >with women eminently successful at violence is (do I dare use this word >here?) fantasy. And I've watched a 5 ft 4 in male Shotokan expert fight an untrained but agressive fellow a foot taller (and with greater reach) and whup him in three count them three blows. I've also fought kumite with a brown belt who was my height (6'3") and an extremely alluring red-headed woman. But I never noticed 'cause I was usually getting knocked on my ass. And I can tell you from near certain knowledge -- she was not an androgyne. Are you seriously contending that women can't win fights against bigger men as a result of fighting skill? Would you say the same thing about smaller males? It just doesn't wash. -- Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)