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From: simsong@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Simson Garfinkel)
Newsgroups: net.suicide
Subject: Suicide
Message-ID: <51@mit-amt.MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 6-Dec-85 09:46:37 EST
Article-I.D.: mit-amt.51
Posted: Fri Dec  6 09:46:37 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 8-Dec-85 03:33:01 EST
Organization: MIT Media Lab, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 48
Keywords: not-abortion

The following is excerpted from discussion on suicide between Pat
Solomon and Simson L. Garfinkel. We have moved the discussion to
net.suicide with the hopes that other people will join in:

Simson:
>...(Started with a now-lost message that it takes a lot more courage
to kill one's self than not. A lot of suicides don't happen because
the individuals don't have the guts)

Pat:
+ So, you say courage is the vital element for a person contemplating
+ suicide?  `Depressed people don't have the guts.'  I believe I follow
+ your thinking, but I have a different conclusion.
+ 
+ "Courage implies firmness of mind and will in the face of danger or
+ extreme difficulty" -Webster's.  To have "firmness of mind", resolution
+ a person has to feel that they have thoroughly examined the situation.
+ A person may suffer spells of depression often, but if they only dwell
+ on the sadness, not thinking through the problems that provoke it, they
+ aren't going to feel very resolute about taking such a final step.  And
+ that's really too bad because thinking through the problem rationally
+ could more likely be the key to finding a positive solution.  How many
+ times has something ever troubled you, and when you really thought about
+ it, the root was quite different than what you might have imagined?

Simson replys:
Perhaps, but I am reminded about ``hesitation marks'' which would-be
and actual suicide victims (look at that word) leave behind on their
body. Like the person who tries to slash his wrists but doesn't cut
deep enough the first few times, or the person who tries to shoot
himself but misses and shoots the wall a few times. I think that these
are primary people who have not thought out the situation.

I think that the people likely to kill themselves are those who sit
down, realize their alternatives and decide that death is the best
(and definitely easiest) way out. If a person is facing massive
penalties, like prison, blackmail or a terribly unhappy life,
suicide might even be a low-cost way out.

I tend to believe, although this is more based on a reading of
literature than actual experiences (though there have been some) is
that when people try to kill themselves in desperation, without
thinking over what they are doing, they often do not succeed. Its as
if the point of the suicide attempt is to be around afterwards. This
would argue for suicide being the calm, rational approach for those
with the guts.

How do other people feel?