Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: unknown; site unknown Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!psuvax1!burdvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!qantel!lll-crg!seismo!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!isl1.ri.cmu.edu!cycy From: cycy@isl1.ri.cmu.edu (Christopher Young) Newsgroups: net.motss Subject: Re: It Ain't pretty Message-ID: <224@isl1.ri.cmu.edu> Date: Mon, 20-Jan-86 22:40:04 EST Article-I.D.: isl1.224 Posted: Mon Jan 20 22:40:04 1986 Date-Received: Thu, 23-Jan-86 10:59:14 EST References: <500@decwrl.DEC.COM> Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI Lines: 56 While I can understand Ray's cynical viewpoint, and indeed I've noticed the same behaviour among many gay men myself, I feel that the attitude Ray presents in his posting is a bit radical and indeed self-destructive. First, I do think that, as a whole, lesbians are way more together than gay men. For one thing, lesbians in general are a lot more concerned about social/political issues whereas gay men seem to be only interested in themselves. I think one reason is because women themselves have been oppressed so long whereas men have had it easy for a long time. Lesbians are being discriminated on two fronts, and they can't hide the fact that they are women. As far as straight people and acceptance goes, I think it is impossible to make any generalisation about that at all. I seen everywhere from complete acceptance to death threats. Stereotypes can be dangerous, however. Especially negative, bitter ones. There are many gay people who just don't engage in "gay" social activities. I and my lover rarely do. In fact, I rarely ever did when I was single. I didn't/don't need them; I had/have my friends, I make new ones through my friends and by chance, and that's enough with me. If somebody gives me a "dead flounder" handshake, is catty and nasty, etc., I note that I probably would not like to associate with that person and leave it at that. I don't need them and they don't need me. I don't care. It's not my loss. I don't get bitter. Having been a member of Dignity, I would like to debate Ray's view of the organisation. I think perhaps it depends upon where you go to Dignity meetings. I went to a wonderful church in Sacramento, Calif. It was quite integrated. There were white, black, hispanic, asian, etc, straight and gay, man and women, young and old, etc. We worked on issues such as Santcuary and social justice. Dignity also met there once a month. It was not cruisy. And there were wome Religious issues were discussed after mass, and I found it quite pleasant. There was spiritual life there. And it worked *with* the church. We even had a fund for the school attatched to the church for which we would hold rummage sales and such. It was great, and it's one of the things I miss most about Sacramento. Life is what one makes of it. I have a number of gay and straight friends in about equal percentages. I ignore those I don't care to be with and enjoy the company of those I find I get along with. Personally, I think Kenwatch is kind of stupid, but understandable. If it were more positive (ie., warned newcomers rather than launching vicious counter-attacks), I think I would like it better. But I don't think a person should go sour on an entire, giagantic population of people. It's not very fair. I have friends who I consider to be physically attractive and not so attractive, but they are all very handsome inside. I think there are lots of people, gay and straight, who feel that the inner qualities are the most important. But going around with such a bitter attitude is bound to turn people off. Thus, potential friends are alienated before they are ever met. I don't want to lessen the point about pettiness, because that and gossip do seem to be overly abundant in "gay" culture. But I encourage people to make their own culture and their own friends, and to be open to all people. Sorry this is so long. -- Chris.