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From: msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: our neighbors
Message-ID: <1020@lsuc.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 7-Jan-86 02:47:51 EST
Article-I.D.: lsuc.1020
Posted: Tue Jan  7 02:47:51 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 7-Jan-86 09:32:34 EST
References: <836@mmintl.UUCP> <5000167@uokvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader)
Organization: Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto
Lines: 45
Summary: I *still* say U.S. lost

Regarding the question of who won the War of 1812 in North America, I wrote:

> >The thing is, the U.S. started the war (admittedly under serious British
> >provocation, since the British Navy had been interfering with U.S. merchant
> >shipping).  The U.S. decided to invade "Canada" (meaning Upper Canada, now
> >southern Ontario, and Lower Canada, now southern Quebec, both British
> >colonies)... AND ANNEX CANADA to the U.S.!

And Frank Adams replied:

> Yes, but was the war fought for the purpose of taking over Canada, or was
> that an additional objective?  The U.S. had as one of its goals in the war
> to get the British to stop interfering with U.S. merchant shipping, and in
> this was successful.  (A treaty which would have accomplished this was
> signed before the war broke out, but news thereof did not reach the U.S.
> before fighting broke out.)  To argue that the U.S. lost, it is insufficient
> to note that the U.S. decided to invade Canada; you must argue that that was
> the primary American objective.  I am not convinced that that was the case.

Rather than arguing that it was the primary objective, I argue that it
was the only objective that still mattered at the end of the war.
The thing is, the reasons Britain wanted to interfere with the U.S. ships
in the first place was to strengthen their side against France in the
coming War of 1812 in Europe.  (And, of course, it was remembered that
France supported the U.S. in the American Revolution.)  Well, before
the Treaty of Ghent ended the War of 1812 in North America, Britain had
already defeated France, and therefore they had no more need to interfere.
(You are correct about the other treaty, but it only affected one of the
two forms of interference that were going on -- I'll spare the net the
details.)  So the only thing left was the attempt to annex Canada.
And we know what happened to that.

Well, having stated my case, I'll back down a little.  Pierre Berton puts
it this way:  "Having won the last battle, the Americans were convinced
that they won the War of 1812.  Having stemmed the tide of invasion and
kept the Americans out of their country, Canadians believed that THEY won
the war.  Having ceded nothing they considered important, the British were
serene in the conviction that THEY won it.  ...  But the real losers were
the Indians."  And elsewhere, he calls it "the war that Canada won, or
more precisely DID NOT LOSE."  His emphasis in each case.  But with all due
respect for the great Mr. Berton, I prefer my line of reasoning.  "We" won...
if only by a score, so to speak, of 21-20.

I don't think I'll post any more on this.
Mark Brader