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From: dlo@drutx.UUCP (OlsonDL)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Politics and Ethics -- Socialism,...
Message-ID: <362@drutx.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 24-Jan-86 18:56:01 EST
Article-I.D.: drutx.362
Posted: Fri Jan 24 18:56:01 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 25-Jan-86 22:34:43 EST
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver
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[]

>>In <318@drutx.UUCP> David Olson writes in reply to Tim Sevener:

>>Another point: your concept of wealth control bothers me.  The market
>>is not a zero-sum game.  Just because someone became wealthier, does not
>>*necessarily* mean that someone else became poorer.  Because some people
>>control more wealth, does not mean that others *must* control less.

>>For instance, I have a garden in my back yard that produces much of the
>>food (a form of wealth) eaten at my home almost all year long.  Because
>>my garden flourishes, does not mean that someone else's garden has to
>>perish.  Because I control my garden and enjoy food that comes from it,
>>does not mean that someone somewhere in the world has been made hungrier.
>>David Olson


>Let me explain the concept of "wealth control" to you, using
>your garden-example and expanding it.

>Nobody in the world is necessarily hungrier because you control
>your garden, but with your decision, whether to let participate 
>others in the benefits of your garden or not, you make a
>difference for those who are involved. The difference might
>be negligible for those who don't care or don't depend on your
>caring for them; for those who depend on your charity, this
>difference is essential. You exercise power over those who
>depend on you by deciding how/if/when... you distribute your
>goods;

Who is this "those who are involved"?  As far as I know, nobody worked
that garden but me.  And, how is it that my garden gives me power over
people, when but for me, that garden would not even exist?  i.e. would
these people be any better or worse off, if I decided not to grow a
garden at all?  Nonsense.  If I chose not to grow a garden, they lose
nothing; you cannot lose what never existed.  The fact that I grow one,
still means that they lose nothing; you cannot lose what is not yours to
lose.  I have given food to people who were needy; it was my choice to
make.  But, I am *NOT* required to distribute to them anything.

>not everybody is fortunate enough to have a garden...

Before I started that garden, what was there consisted mainly of
thistle barely growing on dirt that was almost as hard as concrete.
I had to use a pickaxe on much of it just to break up the dirt.
I finally got it workable and put in some nutrients (mainly organic).
It still requires someone (me) to, among other things, till the earth,
plant the seed, worry about hail storms, harvest and preserve the food.
It probably always will.  "fortunate enough to have a garden"?  There's
more to it than that.

>(Note in this context: for everybody whom you give more, somebody
>else gets less. The  market, that re-distributes 
>limited resources, is a zero-sum game).

Nonsense.  If you mean that if *I choose* to give person A more than A
already has, then you cannot possibly deduce what (if anything) was
given to person B.  If you mean that if I choose to give person A more
than to person B, B looses nothing.  For instance, if I decide to give
person A four carrots, but person B three carrots, B has lost nothing.
Indeed, B now has three carrots profit.  If I did not give either A or B
anything, they still lose nothing, since the carrots were not theirs in
the first place.  Remember, I am not *required* to give them anything,
no matter how badly they need it.

>		Armin Roeseler    ...ihnp4!ihlpa!doit

>-- Let's look at things in a global context.
>   Let's move our gardens out into the world.

What's this "Let's" and "our" crap?  I have given food to people that
needed it.  You had nothing to do with it; you have no say in the matter!


My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

David Olson
..!ihnp4!drutx!dlo

"To laugh at men of sense is the privilege of fools". -- Jean de la Bruyere