Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site sdcc6.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!psuvax1!burdvax!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!ix442 From: ix442@sdcc6.UUCP (Nidhal Guessoum) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion Subject: ISLAMIC TOLERANCE Message-ID: <2360@sdcc6.UUCP> Date: Fri, 10-Jan-86 01:32:53 EST Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2360 Posted: Fri Jan 10 01:32:53 1986 Date-Received: Sun, 12-Jan-86 21:27:30 EST Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Lines: 112 Keywords: follow-up on the "Arab Tolerance" discussion Xref: lsuc net.politics:2840 net.religion:608 In this article, I will try to answer some of the responses my previous posting regarding Islamic tolerance got.I should first remind everybody that my original article came in response to Mr. Martillo's article, which stated that > non-muslims were assigned second class status and humiliation > by Islamic law... and that > at times, there have been Muslim rulers who treated non-muslims > much better than Islamic law permits...the individual and not > Islam deserves the credit... I am reminding you of all that because after I showed thru the Islamic principles and the Islamic history that such a claim had absolutely no basis, people started saying that it is obvious that you won't find such statements in the Holy Books ( which supports my statements, not Mr. Martillo's ), and that you should look instead into the traditions of people. Well first, that has nothing to do with Mr. Martillo's original attack on the Islamic Law, not the traditions , or with my reply, and second even that can be argued upon , as I will try to show later. Many other people took the opportunity to assail muslim communities' relations with Jewish communities living in the so-called Islamic countries.(By the way, may be I would agree on calling Iran an Islamic country, in that its laws are based on Islamic juridiction, but certainly not countries such as Syria - remember the massacres of Hamma ?...) Anyway, I never said that muslim communities constitute perfect peoples. Especially not in recent eras.. I must say here that I had never heard of the 5000 Jews supposedly killed in "Grandada" ( I assume the person is refering to Granada, Spain ) in 1066, or of the 6000 of Fez in 1033. Let me just point out that the Muslims arrived in Spain around 711. I can't figure out why they would have waited until 1066 to murder 5000 Jews, if their religion condoned it ... Likewise for Fez, Morocco where they arrived in the middle of the 7th century. In any case, one can expect excesses, and irresponsable acts against non-muslims; the point is : such actions have no legal basis in Islam, on the contrary. So much for the introduction, let me take a few of the interesting comments made regarding my previous posting, and try to answer them in an objective manner. Regarding violence against the Copts in Egypt, someone told about an incident dating from 1972 ( God knows what the reasons for this one were .) Living aside the argument of non-perfectness of the muslims, my comment is this : How does the rate of attacks against Jewish and Christian communities in the Islamic world compare with the violence to which the Islamic population of the West-Bank is subjected to : bombs against Arab mayors (remember Bessam Chekaa and the others ?) , bombs in the Islamic University of ( was it Naplouse ?) by Jewish extremists, burning of the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, killing and torture by the Israeli police almost on an everyday basis ( I can give references, but this point is secondary here...) Regarding the statistics of Jews living in the Arab world, Chedley Aouriri has already remarked that they are wrong. Let me just emphasize that Tunisia has much more than 5000 Jews ( who have no problem whatsoever ) , and that Algeria has several thousand Jews, not 500 . I know something about Tunisia and Algeria...And let me note that since we are talking about ISLAMIC tolerance, we should also mention the Jews of Iran ( a large community, especially in Tehran) who, to my knowledge, have not suffered any attacks, even after the Islamic revolution. I want to come to Matt Rosenblatt's interesting, and at first troubling comments regarding The Qur'an's position vis-a-vis non-muslims. After reading the verses he quotes, I immediately felt there was something wrong, because they ( the quotes ) did not fit in my view and knowledge of The Qur'an.( Someone said Matt took the "bad verses" of The Qur'an and drew conclusions from them. Well it wasn't even that...) So I went back to my copy of The Qur'an ( original Arabic version ) , and to my English translation of it. And yes, some of his quotes were outrageously wrong. See for yourself : 1) " Believers , take neither the Jews or Christians for your friends ..." Qur'an according to Matt Rosenblatt... The Arabic word that he ( or he "translation") translates as "friends" is "awleah," which means "rulers and protectors," not friends ( then it makes sense .) Ask anyone who has some knowledge of classical Arabic. I am a Muslim, and I have numerous friends who are Muslim,Jewish, Christian,or even Atheist. No problem with that... 2) " If the people of The Book accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight." so far so good... But then : "If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what IS (??) revealed to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from above and from beneath" Qur'an according to Matt.. In fact, the world IS should be WAS (!!!), refering to ..The Bible.. Then it makes sense...The Qur'an makes it clear in several verses ( including this one ) that Jews and Christians are allowed to keep their faith and tradition. As long as they do follow it, they will enter Paradise... 3) Regarding the Prophet's actions, if the only problem Matt has is regarding the punishment os Beni-Qurayda, good. Because the reason for that one is simple : the Jews of Medina betrayed the mutual defense pact they had signed with Muhammad by allowing his enemies to infiltrate thru the Jewish part of Medina during the battle of "Al-Ahzab" ( the tribes ),when a coalition of Arabian tribes came to Medina to try to destroy the Islamic state. Afterwards, Muhammad decided to punish the Jewish community of Qurayda by burning some of their palm trees ( economic sanctions ) and executed only about a dozen of them. ( I have no idea where you got the figure of 800. Did you think he threw an atomic bomb on them or something ?) I still have a few more clarifications to make, but this posting is already too long. Please no cheap attacks. Respectfully, Nidhal Guessoum... "