Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!ucbvax!ernie.berkeley.edu!tedrick From: tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (Tom Tedrick) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.crypt Subject: Re: ENIGMA and the Eastern Front Message-ID: <11796@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: Tue, 11-Feb-86 06:13:03 EST Article-I.D.: ucbvax.11796 Posted: Tue Feb 11 06:13:03 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 12-Feb-86 21:26:56 EST References: <1245@pucc-i> <.UUCP> <@.UUCP> Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Reply-To: tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Tom Tedrick) Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 46 Xref: watmath net.politics:13400 net.crypt:521 >>>>I claim cryptography was the key factor. >>>We were discussing the Eastern Front. As far as I've heard, >>>cryptography played no role there. Since I think the Western >>How about the fact that information which was gained vi ULTRA >>and passed to the Soviets (without their knowing it came through >>cryptography of course) played a key role in the Soviet plan for >>encirclement of German forces at Stalingrad? And in allowing >>the Soviets to block von Manstein's relief attempt? What about >>the fact that plans for the German offensive at Kursk were >>known to the Soviets (due to intercepts which were passed >>to them again), which allowed them to prepare a defensive >>zone a hundred miles deep, which broke the force of the >>German attack, and to prepare a counterblow from which >>the Germans never recovered? >> >>You know of course that information from ULTRA was passed >>to the Soviets throughout the campaign on the Eastern Front. >>And played a vital role in many respects ... > >Well, Tom, you may win yet. Just give us some references! I had to piece this together from some of the hundreds of books in this area that I have read. For example, it was well known that the plans for the Kursk offensive had been compromised, but not until recently how. I wrote an article which should appear in the proceedings of Eurocrypt 85, whenever it comes out, but the field seems to be open for a lot more historical analysis if anyone cares to give it a shot. I think if one reads some of the books on Enigma, like the "Ultra Secret" and the new book on Alan Turing, then rereads the books about the war with an eye towards picking out the influence of ULTRA, a lot that was unclear in the past becomes clear. I can give you a list of things I read if you like, most of them are in the UCB main library. A few that come to mind are books by von Manstein, Kesselring, Paulus, Guderian, "The Rommel Papers", Zhukov, etc. As I said there are hundreds more ... >I must admit I am *very* surprised. I find it hard to believe the >US/UK would want Stalin to know how good our intelligence was. It >was a delicate issue just sharing Enigma intercepts with the US! Quite right. It was evidently a very difficult job deciding what information to give the Soviets, and to disguise the source. I certainly don't know every detail as to what passed to them. The Soviets aren't too cooperative about discussing such things :-)