Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!hao!nbires!boulder!cisden!john From: john@cisden.UUCP (John Woolley) Newsgroups: net.jokes.d,net.women Subject: Re: traditional values Message-ID: <451@cisden.UUCP> Date: Wed, 22-Jan-86 17:27:21 EST Article-I.D.: cisden.451 Posted: Wed Jan 22 17:27:21 1986 Date-Received: Sun, 26-Jan-86 05:05:48 EST References: <263@galbp.UUCP> <418@cisden.UUCP> <1124@oddjob.UUCP> Reply-To: john@cisden.UUCP (John Woolley) Distribution: net Organization: ConTel Information Systems, Denver Lines: 79 Keywords: joke, chuckle, ease off, laugh, relax, humour, funny Xref: watmath net.jokes.d:1325 net.women:8487 I recently posted (to net.jokes) what still strikes me as a very funny joke that depended for its effect on a sudden realization of the previous history of one of the characters, i.e. that she'd obtained the money she was depositing by prostitution. Adrian Kent calls the joke "sexist propaganda". Now I've told that joke to a number of people of both sexes, and never had that reaction. I certainly didn't mean it that way, I don't think it can be fairly taken that way, and I'm forced to conclude I don't know for sure what Adrian was getting at. In article <1124@oddjob.UUCP> apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent) writes: >In article <418@cisden.UUCP> john@cisden.UUCP (John Woolley) writes: >>This girl goes into a bank, fills out a deposit form, goes up to the >>teller, says she wants to deposit a fifty-dollar bill. The teller >>takes the bill, looks at it, holds it up to the light, finally says, >>"I'm sorry, ma'am, but I can't accept this bill. It's counterfeit." >>"Oh my God!" says the girl, "I've been raped!" >>-- >> Peace and Good!, >> Fr. John Woolley > To set this lovely piece of sexist propaganda in context, look at an >earlier article: "Propaganda" means writing or talk designed to try to persuade somebody to do something or believe something. Two questions: 1. Is it even vaguely possible that anyone's opinions on women, or banks, or prostitution, or rape, or Life-the- Universe-and-Everything were changed by my joke? 2. What is it you thought I was trying to persuade people to do or believe? "Sexist" as I understand it means something like "characterised by a belief that women are in some way inferior to men". How in the world does the joke have anything to do with the superiority of one sex over another? I don't believe women are inferior, I certainly didn't say it, and I don't see how it could have been inferred from what I said. You know, there are a lot of things that show up in net.jokes that various sorts of people find offensive in various ways. There are a lot of jokes posted there that I find offensive, some of them because they're degrading to women. It strikes me as really perverse to take a joke that isn't the least bit "anatomical" and post it to net.women as the epitome of evil. Why was my joke so horribly offensive, but out-and-out sexual humour is acceptable? >In article <358@cisden.UUCP> john@cisden.UUCP (John Woolley) writes: >> In article <862@cybvax0.UUCP> mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) writes: >>>You can get away with this sort of disingenuous appeal to traditional values >>>in a conversation, but one of the advantages of the net is that we can sit >>>back and analyze your fallacies at our own pace, rather than in real time. > >> Nicely put. But I don't think "disingenuous" is correct. I was being very >> open about my traditional values, not trying to be false or cunning or >> deceptive at all. > >I think your candor regarding your traditional values is now beyond dispute. >Just two questions: >(1) Do you understand that many of your readers are women, or like women, or >both, and for that reason regard those values with contempt? Are you trying to say I dislike women? I like most people (including women), some people (including women) like me, and lots and lots and lots of women hold what I'd call "traditional values". You're being awfully sexist, no?, implying that all women and all men who like women have similar and non-traditional values. What "values" are you talking about? What "values" are so horribly revealed in the joke? Is a sense of humour incompatible with a respect for women? >(2) What was the first article doing in net.jokes? It was a joke. It seemed an appropriate place to post it somehow. -- Peace and Good!, Fr. John Woolley "Compared to what I have seen, all that I have written is straw." -- St. Thomas