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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!apak
From: apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent)
Newsgroups: net.jokes.d
Subject: Re: traditional values, Salome, and a Siberian joke at the end.
Message-ID: <1155@oddjob.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 5-Feb-86 00:24:06 EST
Article-I.D.: oddjob.1155
Posted: Wed Feb  5 00:24:06 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 7-Feb-86 06:10:55 EST
References: <263@galbp.UUCP> <418@cisden.UUCP> <1124@oddjob.UUCP>
Reply-To: apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent)
Organization: U. Chicago, Astronomy & Astrophysics
Lines: 98

In article <123@dg_rtp.UUCP> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>In <1148@oddjob.UUCP> apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent) says:
>
>> "Salome, dear, NOT in the fridge."
>
>Now, this was in a line of discussion accusing a person with the title
>"Fr." of giving offense to women with a joke.  Since the above is a
>joke, and it can certainly be thought to be offensive to Christians,  I
>wonder what the motive was.  [...]
>    I think maybe Adrian was a little
>    careless...  though I *would* be interested to hear just why an
>    offensive joke was posted in an article protesting offensive jokes,
>    with no clue as to the lesson this was supposed to impart to the
>    readers.  ]
>Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC

There was no motive and no intended lesson. The quote's a signature line which
I use on random occasions. Though it doesn't answer your criticisms, I have
good reason to believe that Fr. Woolley does not find it offensive. More to
the point, I would claim that it isn't open to the type of objection which I
have to Fr. Woolley's prostitute/rape posting. In what follows, I explain why,
comment on some earlier postings, and tell the infamous Siberian toilet joke.
(WARNING: this contains the word 'toilet'.)

No-one seems both to have understood and disagreed with my posting. There've
been lots of postings objecting to the 'joke', nearly all of which I agree
with. There've also been a fair number objecting to the objections, and these
fall into categories:
(1) "go fperj yourself" [This has a certain raw quality, but's slightly ruined
by the omission of the word fperj from my dictionary. Someone suggested that
it is rotated, but "tb screw lbhefrys" makes even less sense.]
(2) "I am a woman/am married to a woman/know several people who might be
women/...               and I thought the joke was         funny/not very funny
but not offensive/should have been rotated but not flamed/......"
[This kind of testimony is fine, but unlikely by itself to change anyone's
mind.]
(3) "You don't seem to realise two things. One, just because a joke contains
the word 'rape' doesn't mean it's anti-women, any more than murder jokes are
anti-people. Two, all jokes are offensive."
     Point one is crucial. When I objected to the 'joke', I explicitly said
that I didn't think it impossible to produce a joke about rape. Yet poster 
after poster explained to me that there are funny jokes about death, or
racism. Sometimes I think I can sustain a higher level of intellectual debate
with my pet mollusc than with a significant fraction of the net. [No, don't
worry, I'm not attacking *you*. It's the idiot at the next terminal who annoys
me.] So let me try one more time:
     Fr. Woolley's punchline's humor content derives from a prostitute
calling a breach of contract rape. That's funny if you think this is a good
illustration of the humorous little foibles of {prostitutes, women, sexually
active women: choose your own category}. But if you think that, you're very
very stupid and not the sort of person who ought to be involved in the real
world. (Particularly bad careers for you are those of police officer, parent,
or priest.) To many of the rest of us, the suggestion is extremely offensive:
more so as it fits into a widespread and dangerous mythology about women.
(One caveat: some people - including Fr. Woolley - say the joke is really the
discovery that the woman is a prostitute. I suppose this element is also
there, though it doesn't send me into paroxyms. But I don't understand how
you can claim this is the main part of the joke, still less the only part.)
     I hope it's clear from this that my signature line isn't objectionable
on the same grounds. There are few career openings for messianic prophets
these days, but I don't think I've denigrated the calling of those that
remain. 
     Oh, yes, point two. Well, firstly it's rubbish. Secondly, even if it 
were true, it wouldn't imply that all offensive things are jokes.

THE SIBERIAN TOILET JOKE

     A Russian man's toilet breaks down, so he goes to a store to buy a new
 one. He gets there, and asks to see what's in stock. 
     "Certainly, comrade." says the salesman "Step this way."
The salesman first shows the customer the Brezhnev model, a tastefully-
bejewelled make with a rolled-gold handle. On lifting the seat, the 
Internationale booms out from a speaker in the cistern.
     "That's a fine toilet", says the customer, "How much is it, comrade?"
     "Twenty thousand roubles, comrade", says the salesman.
The customer, aghast at the price, asks to see another model.
....long sequence of beautiful but unaffordable toilet makes follows...
Finally, the customer admits that he simply can't afford to spend three
years salary on a toilet, and asks if they have anything cheaper.
     "Well," says the salesman " we do have a Siberian toilet in stock."
     "How much is that?"
     "Two kopeks."
     "Fine. I'll take it."
The salesman disappears into a back room, and returns with two poles. Both
have a sharpened end; one is twenty feet long, the other five feet.
He hands them to the customer.
     "Here you are, comrade. One Siberian toilet."
     "Thank you, comrade. But, er, how do you use it?"
The salesman explains.
     "Well, you hold the small pole like so, drive the pointed end into the
frozen tundra, and hang your coat on it."
     "And the large pole?"
     "Ah, that's for keeping the wolves at bay."

				       ak