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From: jay@imagen.UUCP (Jay Jaeckel)
Newsgroups: net.jokes.d
Subject: Re: Offensive Jokes, the Space Shuttle, and Twits (Long)
Message-ID: <255@imagen.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 10-Feb-86 14:20:43 EST
Article-I.D.: imagen.255
Posted: Mon Feb 10 14:20:43 1986
Date-Received: Wed, 12-Feb-86 21:04:06 EST
References: <323@ihu1n.UUCP>
Distribution: net
Organization: Imagen Corp., Santa Clara, CA
Lines: 100

Discussion follows, ~100 lines long.

> IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT'S POSTED HERE, DON'T READ THESE ARTICLES!
> 
>                                                           . . .  But I don't
> believe that this country is shocked. Only those people who saw it in
> person . . .
>                                                         . . .  To the rest of
> us, it's just more TV theatre.
> 
>                            . . .  No one sees what happens on those screens 
> as *real*. . . .
>                                . . . part of you believes that once the scene
> is over and the photographers and reporters leave, someone will say "Cut!" and
> all the dead bodies will get up, brush themselves off, and go off for a can of
> Coke.
> 
> I have my Nomex suit at hand, so flame away.
> 
> 						Carl Deitrick

Take off your Nomex and relax; I will keep this response civil.

Your point is well taken that there is much (too much?) gore in entertainment;
the matter seems to be well-noted already by sociologists, and much discussed.
The resulting effects on our culture are controversial.  Your implied social
criticism on this point is worthy discussion.

I take issue with your contention that the nation wasn't shocked and no-one
sees it all as real.  I was shocked and I saw it as real.  I took most of
the rest of the day off work, and was upset enough to go home for some
mildly sedative medication.

I see lots of gore on the screen -- I saw Star Wars multiple times; even the
light comedy The Gods Must Be Crazy showed an aircraft going cablooey.  I
wasn't shocked.  But the Space Shuttle blow-up (which I never did see on TV
myself) floored me.

Why do I not need a trank after seeing gore in fictional shows?  Well, because
I know it isn't real.

Why do I get so upset over the Shuttle while not after learning of the
Newfoundland crash, the Mexico earthquake, the Bhopal gas leak, etc?
Well, because . . .     Well, because . . .
Well, why?  I'm not sure I know fully, and I don't think you know either.
I can easily believe that all the media hype -- not only after the explosion,
but also BEFORE it -- may have had a lot to do with it.  Others on the net
(especially in net.columbia) have given many other opinions, which I won't
repeat here.

Above all, I take issue with your presumption to speak for me and the nation.
If you feel this way yourself, state it that way.  If you really believe
that a large number of people feel as you do (as I did when I posted one of
the earlier requests for no-space-shuttle jokes), say something like
"... and I suspect a lot of other people feel the same way ..." (as I did).
And if you REALLY believe that EVERYBODY feels the same as you . . .
Well, I promised to stay civil.

The first large collection of sick shuttle jokes to be posted, by the way,
was NOT ROT-13.  (J.S. said it was twice-ROTTEN.)  It should have been
thrice-rotten, and each byte should have been right-shifted eight bits.

I dislike a lot of jokes I see here, but only the shuttle jokes have seemed
SO hurtful to me that I feel the mere posting of them is hurtful.  That's why
I asked for them to be withheld.  I haven't similarly asked for any other
jokes to be consigned to /dev/null.

This discussion is intended for all readers of net.jokes.d --  I think the
conclusions I would like to express are:
   (1) DO participate is discussions and express your opinions.
   (2) But please also exercise some restraint -- I think a joke must be
       AWFULLY AWFULLY offesive to someone before it is reasonable to ask
       for it to be squelched.
   (3) Wherever the option exists to flame or stay civil, please choose
       to stay civil.  What end is gained by the proliferation of
       space-shuttle magnitude flames here?  I didn't even flame too hotly
       in my initial criticism of the shuttle jokes, yet I got hate mail
       for it, both privately and on the net.  (Yes, I also got some civil
       criticism.)  Others since have flamed and counter-flamed much
       more hotly on this net, on this and many other subjects.
   (4) DO recognize that your opinions probably aren't universal, and allow
       other people theirs without being too quick to flame them for it.
   (5) If you MUST post jokes that you yourself recognize are sick (and I
       admit, I've enjoyed a number of them), DO ROT-13 it!

I apologize for the length of this posting and for the phone bills it must
create.  But, in the two months I've been reading this, I've been waiting for
someone else to say the things I say above, and I haven't seen it yet.
And I hope these views don't mean I'm a twit.

Oh, BTW -- The sociologists have also noted and studied the tendency of
computer net participants to flame one another mercilessly, in uncivil and
often abusive language.  I saw a big newspaper article on this in some
paper several weeks ago.

                                            -- Jay Jaeckel
                                            ...{decwrl,ucbvax}!imagen!jay

The opinions expressed above are certainly my own.  I HOPE that at least
a FEW other netlanders share some of them.