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From: orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Proof That Reason And Force Are Opposites
Message-ID: <520@whuts.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 28-Jan-86 18:19:40 EST
Article-I.D.: whuts.520
Posted: Tue Jan 28 18:19:40 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 6-Feb-86 10:33:45 EST
References: <1626@hound.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 46

> from Bob Stubblefield:
> 
> 		Anatomy of a Socialist's Defense of Force
 
I never defended force, what I was criticizing in this particular
article referred to is Bob's individualizing of the whole process
of reason.  Contrary to Bob's comments that such individualization
is not important, such an assumption is profoundly important in
affecting the whole of one's later conclusions.
If you do not wish to call yourself a libertarian or an objectivist
but some other species of the same genera is not important.
The point of your elaborate but confused argument was the conclusion
stated in both your original article and your reply:

> Or one that protects individual rights by preventing members of society from
> initiating force--i.e., capitalism?
> 
 
I have pointed out in previous articles in this newsgroup, as has
Richard Carnes and others, that it is quite simply *false* to
contend that capitalism and private property involve no force.
To claim a piece of property in capitalism means that one can
force others off it and prevent their use.  Thus in the fabled
desert island example (which one notes could never last as a *society*
because there are no women and no family to reproduce such a society)
as soon as somebody else comes onto Robinson Crusoe's island than
s/he may be summarily forced to leave under the rights of private
property.  To do so *requires the use of force*!!
It was exactly such force which led to expansion of feudal fiefs
in the Middle Ages, it was such force which led to the white settlement
of Indian lands (which had previously suffered under no exploitation or
from the exclusions and restrictions and control of private property)
in which whole Indian tribes were practically wiped out to make room
for private property, it was exactly such force which led to
the slaughter of workers trying to start a union so they could have
redress from exploitative bosses and foremen.
 
How are you to maintain your right of private property on your
desert island?  Kindly ask the intruder (who may see no reason
whatsoever why this work of nature should be *controlled* by
anyone) to leave? And what then?
 
What then is the force which has been applied in the interests
of private property throughout the ages.
 
  tim sevener   whuxn!orb