Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site ism780c.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!psuvax1!burdvax!sdcrdcf!ism780c!dianeh From: dianeh@ism780c.UUCP (Diane Holt) Newsgroups: net.women,net.singles Subject: Re: career vs. relationships Message-ID: <617@ism780c.UUCP> Date: Wed, 12-Feb-86 04:33:16 EST Article-I.D.: ism780c.617 Posted: Wed Feb 12 04:33:16 1986 Date-Received: Fri, 14-Feb-86 03:22:25 EST References: <11785@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Reply-To: dianeh@ism780c.UUCP (Diane Holt) Organization: Interactive Systems Corp., Santa Monica, CA Lines: 84 Xref: watmath net.women:8928 net.singles:10242 In article <11785@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> asimov@degas.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Daz) writes: > > When the question of prejudice comes up, a certain paradox >comes to mind which I believe is a very real problem... >My experience after about 10 years in that role is that male >students are far more likely to be excited about mathematics,... >if I meet a random student for the first time, I have an internal >guesser-daemon who assigns differing probabilities to the student's >chances of being gung-ho, according to the student's sex. First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "a certain paradox". What is it? My dictionary defines "prejudice" as: a judgment or opinion formed before the facts are known; preconceived idea, favorable, or more usually, unfavorable.--Syn. bias. You've said that, based on your acculumation of experience, you prejudice your opinion of new students based on their sex, so where's the "paradox"? Are you trying to imply that, since you feel it's an accurate preconceived notion, it is a legitimate prejudice, and the paradox lies in that conclusion? >I don't feel guilty about that, because I don't think that it interferes >with my ability to treat each student as an individual anyhow. You don't *think* it interferes, but how can you be sure? Do you think there's a possibility that *your* initial lack of enthusiasm toward your female students might be projected and, therefore, their level of enthusiasm towards your class might initially be diminished? I find it very difficult to believe that if you set yourself up with the notion, "Here's the new crop of students -- chances are the girls won't really care too much." that it's not going to have an effect on how you approach them. >And besides, I couldn't make the guesser-daemon go away if I wanted to: >it's based on experience. You *can* make it go away. You tell yourself, "I will approach each new student as an *individual* -- period -- from the very beginning and see how far they want to go." Saying you can't change it means you never will. As long as you hold onto that prophecy, it will continue to be self-fulfilled. > In a recent conversation with a good friend, I mentioned this >experience of mine, of differing probabilities, and she reacted as though >I had just proved myself to be the most blatant male chauvinist. In fact, >she hasn't even answered my communications since that conversation. Well, your friend may have overreacted somewhat, and refusing to discuss the issue with you certainly won't help matters, but I can understand her reaction. How can you say, "I know it sounds prejudiced, but my experience has shown me that females are less enthusiastic than males when it comes to my math courses," and not expect her to be upset by that? It *is* prejudiced, and I can't think of any situation where prejudice can be a positive thing, so what can you possibly expect to accomplish by hanging on to it? Even if you feel you *have* come up with some experience-based insight into the probability of the enthusiasm level of males vs. females, what does it actually accomplish for you? Especially given that you say you don't let it influence the approach you take towards them individually. > Is the best solution to simply stay off these controversial topics >entirely? I'd like to think that there's a better solution. Has anyone >else grappled with the murky region between experience and prejudice, and >found a good way to deal with it? No, avoiding an issue doesn't make it go away, anymore than ignoring a toothache will somehow magically heal your tooth. Yes, I can say that I've sometimes held prejudiced opinions about certain "types" of people, and I've tried very hard to overcome them -- they don't accomplish anything, and they don't "prove" anything. What's the actual ratio of males to females in your classes? Have you developed this notion on a percentage basis or strictly by numbers? I.e., last semester you had 21 males and 3 females in your class; only 1 girl showed any real enthusiasm, but 7 of the males did, therefore males are generally more enthusiastic than females. People have to be very careful about letting ideas like that insinuate themselves into our otherwise sensible minds. The mind can be very subtle when it wants to be and allow us to *think* we've arrived at some reasonable conclusion because that's what we really *want* the conclusion to be -- it's called "rationalizing", and it can be dangerous. I try to keep a real sharp lookout for it myself; it can be a tricky little devil. Diane Holt INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. (east coast:) ihnp4!ima!ism780!dianeh (west coast:) decvax!vortex!ism780!dianeh Person: "Oh, I just *knew* that was going to happen -- I just *knew* it." (Their mind): "Yes, I know, that's why I arranged it so it would. I didn't want you to be disappointed."