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From: rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo)
Newsgroups: net.auto
Subject: downshift problem - diagnosis desired
Message-ID: <323@ptsfb.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 28-Feb-86 09:56:53 EST
Article-I.D.: ptsfb.323
Posted: Fri Feb 28 09:56:53 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 2-Mar-86 00:09:53 EST
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Lines: 86

I have an '82 Toyota Celica with a 5 speed manual transmission
and have been having trouble downshifting into first.
Here are the details:

May '85 30,000 miles
Car was experiencing grinding when shifting into REVERSE (at a
complete dead stop -the same sort of grinding you would expect
to get if the car was not stationary). The dealer replaced the
clutch (clutch disk, clutch cover and two bearings).

This fixed the grinding in reverse problem, but there was a
new problem. Unless the car had been driven for some 15 - 30
minutes, it was difficult to downshift into first unless
the car was stationary. (It used to be that you could downshift
into first at 15 mph, which is the recommended speed at which
you shift between first and second on this car. If you were
above 15 mph there would be resistance much like that you
get when the clutch is not depressed and you try to shift.)
Now what was happening was that when the car is first started
you get that same complete resistance to shifting into first,
unless the car is stationary. As you drive more, it somewhat
eases up and you can shift into first at higher and higher
speeds, but you can usually still feel the gears mesh - it
doesn't shift into first very easily compared to how it used
to be.

So I brought the car back about 5 times, and they said they
checked their clutch work and nothing was wrong with it.
They even said there was no problem downshifting, until
I demanded to go on a test drive with a mechanic. Then they
finally witnessed the problem. But they said it couldn't
be due to they clutch work.

Soon there was occasional whirring and light grinding sounds
when the car is driven in first, which would go away only
if I shifted out of first, double clutched, and shift back.

December 85 45,000 miles on car
I finally bring the car in to AAMCO (selected by the extended
warrantee people). They put in a remanufactured transmission
(at a cost to me of $25 deductible) and also the clutch,
which they said was shot (at a cost of ~$200).

Now the grinding was gone, but the basic downshift problem
remained as it was. There was an additional problem of
car vibrations, especially at certain speeds, when under
load (going up hill, extra passengers, or fast accelerations).

After a month of breaking in (recommended by AAMCO) the two
problems remained.

February '86 48,000 miles on car
I brought the car back to AAMCO. They replaced the transmission
mount (at no cost) and the center mount (cheaply) to successfully
fix the vibrations problem. They deduced that the
downshift problem must be due to the master and slave cylinders
on the hydraulic clutch (since the transmission and clutch
were already fixed and therefore beyond suspicion to them)
(at a cost of ~$150).
They said, however, if the downshift problem still existed, they will
put in yet another transmission at no cost whatsoever,
but I think it highly unusual that the current transmission
would have the same problem as the original transmission.

The downshift problem still exists!

I think either:

	1. I am completely crazy, and the car never really
	did downshift into first like I think it did.

	OR

	2. The problem really has to do with how the
	first clutch repair was done.


HELP! Anyone care to make a diagnosis?
I don't usually read net.auto, so please e-mail responses to me directly,
and I will post a summary of suggested diagnoses and the final outcome.

Your assistance, I can assure you, will save me at lot of aggravation
and gray hairs.


Rob Bernardo, San Ramon, CA    (415) 823-2417    {ihnp4|dual|qantel}!ptsfa!rob