Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!mcvax!boring!steven From: steven@boring.uucp (Steven Pemberton) Newsgroups: net.nlang Subject: Re: Grammar and Spelling on the Net Message-ID: <6808@boring.UUCP> Date: Mon, 3-Mar-86 12:12:09 EST Article-I.D.: boring.6808 Posted: Mon Mar 3 12:12:09 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 5-Mar-86 05:50:59 EST References: <235@pttesac.UUCP> <33100034@ISM780.UUCP> <658@frog.UUCP> <11949@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <135@spar.UUCP> <691@usl.UUCP> Reply-To: steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) Followup-To: net.nlang Distribution: net Organization: CWI, Amsterdam Lines: 143 Apparently-To: rnews@mcvax In article <691@usl.UUCP> jew@usl.UUCP (James E. Wilson) writes: > > Sorry, Anthony. Current usage is tending towards singular `their' > > in cases where the gender is unknown, as has been the natural > > tendency of english for at least ~300 years. > > ...among the illiterate, perhaps. Sorry, my vote is with Anthony. In another article, Jeff Siegal - MIT EECS says: > >The marked words are perfectly correct as used. Would you perhaps have > >preferred "they're" [they are] or "there" [where?] ... > > Wrong. The marked words are plaural pronouns. In each sentence, the > subject is singualar. The correct pronoun is "his," although some would > argue for "his/her." Here we go again. Last June I posted an article quoting the Oxford English Dictionary, and tens of worthy authors through the ages from the 1300's to the present day, who have used 'they', 'them', 'theirs', etc as SINGULAR gender-unspecific words. It is CORRECT English. It was only later grammarians who tried to enforce the rule that they are plural words, and force us to use 'he', etc. Luckily, most people have not followed their dictates. Illiterate? Shakespeare was just one of the many to use the form. Let history be the judge. Steven Pemberton, CWI, Amsterdam; steven@mcvax.uucp -------------------------------------------------------- Here are the quotes from the OED again, for the doubters: THEY 2. Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= `he or she'). See Jespersen Progress in Language 24. 1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 163b, Yf,.a psalm scape ony persone, or a lesson, or else yt they omyt one verse or twayne. 1535 FISHER Ways perf. Relig. ix. Wks. (1876) 383 He neuer forsaketh any creature vnlesse they before haue forsaken them selues. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones viii. xi, Every Body fell a laughing, as how could they help it. 1759 CHESTERF. Lett. IV. ccclv. 170 If a person is born of a gloomy temper ..they cannot help it. 1835 WHEWELL in Life (1881) 173 Nobody can deprive us of the Church if they would. 1858 BAGEHOT Lit.Stud. (1879) II.206 Nobody fancies for a moment that they are reading about anything beyond the pale of ordinary propriety. 1866 RUSKIN Crown Wild Olives 38 (1873) 44 Now, nobody does anything well that they cannot help doing. THEM 2. Often used for `him or her', referring to a singular person whose sex is not stated, or to anybody, nobody, somebody, whoever, etc. 1742 RICHARDSON Pamela III. 127 Little did I think..to make a..complaint against a Person very dear to you,..but dont let them be so proud..as to make them not care how they affront everybody else. 1853 Miss YONGE Heir of Redclyffe xxliv, Nobody else..has so little to plague them. 1874 DASENT Half a life II. 198 Whenever anyone was ill, she brewed them a drink. THEMSELVES 5. In concord with a singular pronoun or sb. denoting a person, in cases where the meaning implies more than one, as when the sb. is qualified by a distributive, or refers to either sex: = himself or herself. a. 1464 Rolls of Parlt. V. 513/2 Inheritements, of which any of the seid persones..was seised by theym self, or joyntly with other. c 1489 CAXTON Sonnes of Aymon i. 39 Eche of theym..make theymselfe redy. 1533 MORE Apol. 55b, Neyther Tyndale there nor thys precher..hath by theyr maner of expounyng..wonne them self mych wurshyp. y. 1600 SHAKS. Lucr. 125 Eury one to rest themselues [ ed. 1594 himselfe] betake. 1654-66 EARL ORRERY Parthen. (1676) 147 All that happened, which every one assured themselves, would render him a large sharer in the general joy. 1874 DASENT Half a life 3 Every one likes to keep it to themselves as long as they can. THEIR 3. Often used in relation to a singular sb. or pronoun denoting a person, after each, every, either, neither, no one, every one, etc. Also so used instead of `his or her', when the gender is inclusive or uncertain. (Not favoured by grammarians.) 13.. Cursor M. 389 (Cott.) Bath ware made sun and mon, Aither wit ther ouen light. c 1420 Sir Amadace (Camden) 1, Iche mon in thayre degre. 14.. Arth. & Merl. 2440 (Kolbing) Many a Sarazen lost their life. 1545 ABP. PARKER Let. to Bp. Gardiner 8 May, Thus was it agreed among us that every president should assemble their companies. 1563 WYNGET Four Scoir Thre Quest. liv, A man or woman being lang absent fra thair party. 1643 TRAPP Comm. Gen. xxiv. 22 Each Countrey bath their fashions, and garnishes. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones vii, xiv Every one in the House were in their beds. 1771 GOLDSM. Hist. Eng III. 241 Every person..now recovered their liberty. 1845 SYD. SMITH Wks. (1850) 175 Every human being must do something with their existence. 1848 THAKERAY Van. Fair xli A person can't help their birth. 1858 BAGEHOT Lit. Studies (1879) II. 206 Nobody in their senses would describe Gray's `Elegy' as [etc.]. 1898 G.B SHAW Plays II Candida 86 It's enough to drive anyone out of their senses. Other quotes (Not OED) SHAKESPEARE God send everyone their heart's desire. THAKERAY No one prevents you, do they? GEORGE ELIOT I shouldn't like to punish anyone, even if they'd done me wrong. WALT WHITMAN ..everyone shall delight us, and we them. ELIZABETH BOWEN He did not believe it rested anybody to lie with their head high... LAWRENCE DURREL You do not have to understand someone in order to love them. DORIS LESSING And how easy the way a man or woman would come in here, glance around, find smiles and pleasant looks waiting for them, then wave and sit down by themselves.