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From: mahoney@bartok.DEC
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: Re: Re: On Democracy:re to Lewis on History
Message-ID: <1385@decwrl.DEC.COM>
Date: Wed, 26-Feb-86 10:51:12 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.1385
Posted: Wed Feb 26 10:51:12 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 27-Feb-86 20:56:32 EST
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Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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---------------------Reply to mail dated 24-FEB-1986 17:37---------------------

>Posted by: decwrl!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer
>Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
> 
>[discussion of development of democratic institutions in Japan]
>[Sevener talking about the joys of democracy]
> 
>> The present concern with human rights expressed by Amnesty International
>> and Americas Watch is an important step towards pressing for the
>> minimum of democratic civil liberties -namely freedom from arbitrary arrest
>> mutilation or murder.
>>              tim sevener   whuxn!orb
> 
>Mr. Sevener: you still don't realize that popular will and civil liberties
>are frequently at cross-purposes.  A few reminders:
> 
>  1. Election of Adolph Hitler in freer and more democratic elections than
>     the United States had at the time.
>  2. Formation of the Fascist government of Benito Mussolini in 1922 after
>     getting more seats in the Parliament than any other party.
>  3. The election of Juan Peron in 1945 Argentina.
>  4. The Oregon Schools Initiative of 1921, which prohibited the Catholic
>     church from operating schools, adopted by the voters of Oregon.  (Of 
>     course, Mr. Sevener probably approves of that.)
>  5. The internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II.
> 
>If the popular will and civil liberties weren't so frequently opposed, 
>we wouldn't need the Bill of Rights.

I agree with what you are syaing about popular will and civil rights being
at cross purposes many times. I do have problems with some of your examples
though.


   1.)  Hitler was never repeat ever elected to anything in Germany.  The
      Nazi's (through a fair vote) never got a complete majority of the
      Riechstag.  Hitler was appointed Chancellor by Paul Von Hindenburg
      who was President.  The elections were not all that free and clear 
      either.

  2.) The election of Mussolini's party was also marred like that of 
      Marco's but at that time people overlooked it.  The King and
      his supporters especially.

  3.) The election of Peron was more the election of his wife.  It was also
      a vote against the ruling aristocracy or oligarchy whatever you
      want to call it.  Evita Peron fashioned her husband into the hero
      and supporter of the common man.  People saw and bought an image
      they were proved wrong.  (Though he was better to the people then
      those that he replaced)

  4.) I know knowing about this I would need to know the percentage of
      votes caste to the number that could have been cast and so forth.
 
  5.) This was governmental action and not the popular will. (Even though
      alot of peope supported it.) If it was put to a vote a don't know
      what would have happened hopefully people would have been against it.
      I can't say.

  SO out of your examples the only popular will was number 4 but as I said
I do agree with you.  It is that you need better examples then the ones you
choose.

  Brian Mahoney