Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Re: Re: On Democracy:re to Lewis on History Message-ID: <546@kontron.UUCP> Date: Fri, 28-Feb-86 12:45:55 EST Article-I.D.: kontron.546 Posted: Fri Feb 28 12:45:55 1986 Date-Received: Sun, 2-Mar-86 08:38:02 EST References: <1385@decwrl.DEC.COM> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 100 > > ---------------------Reply to mail dated 24-FEB-1986 17:37--------------------- > > >Posted by: decwrl!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer > >Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA > > > >[discussion of development of democratic institutions in Japan] > >[Sevener talking about the joys of democracy] > > > >> The present concern with human rights expressed by Amnesty International > >> and Americas Watch is an important step towards pressing for the > >> minimum of democratic civil liberties -namely freedom from arbitrary arrest > >> mutilation or murder. > >> tim sevener whuxn!orb > > > >Mr. Sevener: you still don't realize that popular will and civil liberties > >are frequently at cross-purposes. A few reminders: > > > > 1. Election of Adolph Hitler in freer and more democratic elections than > > the United States had at the time. > > 2. Formation of the Fascist government of Benito Mussolini in 1922 after > > getting more seats in the Parliament than any other party. > > 3. The election of Juan Peron in 1945 Argentina. > > 4. The Oregon Schools Initiative of 1921, which prohibited the Catholic > > church from operating schools, adopted by the voters of Oregon. (Of > > course, Mr. Sevener probably approves of that.) > > 5. The internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II. > > > >If the popular will and civil liberties weren't so frequently opposed, > >we wouldn't need the Bill of Rights. > > I agree with what you are syaing about popular will and civil rights being > at cross purposes many times. I do have problems with some of your examples > though. > > > 1.) Hitler was never repeat ever elected to anything in Germany. The > Nazi's (through a fair vote) never got a complete majority of the > Riechstag. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by Paul Von Hindenburg > who was President. The elections were not all that free and clear > either. > The NSDAP received 42% of the vote -- their coalition partners, the Nationalists received 6%. This isn't a complete majority -- but it's more than the ruling coalition in a lot of "democratic" states. The elections were marred, but from what I've read, they were no worse than say, Chicago elections are today. > 2.) The election of Mussolini's party was also marred like that of > Marco's but at that time people overlooked it. The King and > his supporters especially. > Charismatic leaders have little problem swaying the masses. That's why democracy is so dangerous when unrestricted. > 3.) The election of Peron was more the election of his wife. It was also > a vote against the ruling aristocracy or oligarchy whatever you > want to call it. Evita Peron fashioned her husband into the hero > and supporter of the common man. People saw and bought an image > they were proved wrong. (Though he was better to the people then > those that he replaced) > You are still basically agreeing that democracies can make bad selections. > 4.) I know knowing about this I would need to know the percentage of > votes caste to the number that could have been cast and so forth. > The Oregon Schools Initiative was a vote of the people. If a lot of people choose not to vote, it doesn't affect the legitimacy of the result, at least to those who believe in democracy. (If you need some examples, go look in net.college where various leftists are justifying mandatory political contributions by students on the grounds that the student governments (elected by 10% or less of the students) voted for the fees. > 5.) This was governmental action and not the popular will. (Even though > alot of peope supported it.) If it was put to a vote a don't know > what would have happened hopefully people would have been against it. > I can't say. > A survey of Californians during the war found 80% supported the internment of Japanese-Americans. (Source: _Nisei_, by Bill Hosokawa.) You'll find a lot of support for it among older people, even today. (Logic and facts seem irrelevant when I try to talk to some of them about it.) Also, unless you believe in the mythical pure democracy, representative democracy will always have the problem of government doing things and saying "We represent the people." > SO out of your examples the only popular will was number 4 but as I said > I do agree with you. It is that you need better examples then the ones you > choose. > > Brian Mahoney I think my comments above justify the examples, to various levels of quality.