Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site hoptoad.uucp Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!decwrl!sun!hoptoad!laura From: laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton) Newsgroups: net.women,net.singles Subject: Re: beach harassment, extended Message-ID: <546@hoptoad.uucp> Date: Sat, 22-Feb-86 20:52:47 EST Article-I.D.: hoptoad.546 Posted: Sat Feb 22 20:52:47 1986 Date-Received: Mon, 24-Feb-86 21:39:53 EST References: <177@ttidcc.UUCP> Organization: Nebula Consultants in San Francisco Lines: 109 Xref: linus net.women:8850 net.singles:9387 In article <177@ttidcc.UUCP> regard@ttidcc.UUCP (Adrienne Regard) writes: >It has been pointed out that when the woman on the beach indicated via >short replies her lack of interest in conversing, she was being less than >clear about her feelings. It has been suggested that she make her lack of >interest clear. We can hypothesize about what happens to the woman who >politely but firmly declines further conversation: > >Guy[1,2,3]: (Politely) Nice day. Is that a good book? > >Gal: (Also politely) Yes, but I'm not interested in conversation about it. > >Guy[1,2,3]: Well, shit, I wasn't trying to start up a conversation > or anything. I just made a comment. Who the hell do you think > you are, anyway? Miss America? Why, I've seen better lookers > than you 5 times today. . . > >She didn't initiate, and she tried to refuse contact as pleasantly as >possible, but she caught flack for it. I don't think that this counts as ``as pleasantly as possible''. It is short and abrupt enough to hurt a good many feelings. I figure anybody who makes the effort to approach you is worth at least three or four sentences. That one sentence line leaves the poor guy wondering if you snubbed him because you didn't want *any* company, or because you didn't like the colour of he shoes or what. I think that when rejecting someone it is necessary to get across whether or not you are rejecting him personally. That part isn't clear from this exchange. >I like to dance, and I used to go out to bars to do just that. I've never >once received a less-than-negative response to, "I'd like to dance with >other people tonight" when some guy, after a dance or two, plunks himself >down at "my" table and proceeds to try to discover my lifestory for the >next 3 hours at mega-decibels (his presence effectively discouraging any >other people from approaching the table) Yes, you do meet people like this. You have to up the level of rejection for some people to astronomical limits before they get the message. But this is no reason to *start* at astronomical limits. >I even had a T-shirt printed up that reads, "I go home alone" as a subtle >indicator that I'm at a bar with a dance floor in order to dance. Hmm. In Toronto that would almost universally be taken as a challenge. Perhaps you have this problem here. It is difficult to print a T-shirt with exactly what you want to say, since what you want to say will take more than a few words. But this T-shirt is not an example of direct communication -- the great unspoken question is ``why do you go home alone? because you like it that way? or because nobody has made it worth your while?'' >BUT, I >have found that "direct expression" of my interest (or lack of interest) >hasn't ever won me any points. (In many cases, it's easier on MY ego to >be "indirect", and let the guy go away puzzled, rather than mad.) I ALSO >initiate contact, and I ALSO take rejection. If I had initiated contact, I >accept rejection as a possibility. When I don't initiate the contact, I >resent being blamed for somebody else's weak ego. I don't think that it is a matter of ``weak ego''. There are tactful rejections, and rejections which make you feel like something the cat dragged in. Just because somebody elseinitiated the contact with you doesn't mean that he should be prepared to take anything from you -- as a simple matter of fact he *can't* think of everything. You shouldn't have to spend 3 hours (or 20 minutes) letting him down gently, but a little consideration doesn't hurt. After all, while you are there to dance first, and meet people second (if at all) he may be there to meet people first, and dance second. >And DON'T tell me I initiated contact by being at the bar. So did "he". >Or was he just there for a drink, and I was there to put down men? As >we may accept that men in general don't leave the house saying "Let's go >harrass some woman on the beach" women also don't leave the house saying, >"Let's go lead on some guys then shut them down". I hope that one can assume this. But on three occasions I have lived in a shared house where there were women who used to do exactly that. I was invited to do the same. I don't think that this is representative of most women -- I certainly hope that it is not -- but it gave me the willies. All of these women were under 25 -- I hope that as they grow older they will grow out of this. I think that the problem is one of inexperience and ignorance more than anything else. There is no great place to learn ``how to take a rejection'' anywhere but through experience. And there is no great way to learn how to give a rejection, either. I have noticed the following pattern of bahaviour, though. A man approaches a woman, and they have a few minutes pleasant conversation. But suddenly I get the impression that she panics. What if I can't get rid of him when I want to? Panic, panic, panic -- then crushing rejection. This leaves one stunned and bewildered guy. This particular pattern of bahaviour is flawed on more than one front. First of all, it hurts someone unneceesarily, and second of all it teaches men to expect crushing rejections. As they toughen up to be strong enough to take this kind of stuff, they can end up so insensitive that they are totally oblivious to kinder rejections. And women who run across them learn that (some) men are very hard to get rid of, and so while involved in pleasant conversation with a man may panic, because they are unsure that they can get rid of him when they want to.... around and around and around it goes. clearly everyone would be better off if they knew how to give and how to get a rejection without becoming an insensitive jerk. If somewhere along the line men and women learned not to be afraid of each other this would be a great thing as well. -- Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura laura@lll-crg.arpa