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From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Newsgroups: net.startrek,net.sf-lovers
Subject: Re: Followup to 'His was the most human...'
Message-ID: <12079@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: Thu, 27-Feb-86 14:23:25 EST
Article-I.D.: ucbvax.12079
Posted: Thu Feb 27 14:23:25 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 1-Mar-86 17:35:30 EST
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Reply-To: m128a3aw@brahms.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
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In article <1687@mtgzz.UUCP> leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>>> In STAR TREK III McCoy even comments on all those arguments that Spock
>>> lost.  Now since argument should be an exercise in logic . . . [Spock]
>>> should not lose an argument.
>>
>>He never did.  That's McCoy's opinion, that Spock lost arguments.
>
>I think it was also the opinion of the director.  Why else would Spock
>have a puzzled expression on his face and Kirk and McCoy have smiles of
>apparent victory?
>

I always looked upon the line as humorous and meant as a joke. McCoy and
Spock always argued, but I can't recall either of them winning one, something 
always came up that interupted the arguement. 


>>About Diane Duane and the screwed-up chess scene with McCoy and Spock:
>>If Spock says he cannot find a way out of check, then any conclusion
>>Duane writes which has McCoy winning the game is STUPID.  This only
>>proves that Diane Duane is a particularly bad writer, especially when
>>it comes to Star Trek.
>
>Someone must have pointed this out to her.  I am told that by the time
>the book came to print, it was Kirk who had given up on the game, not
>Spock.  I have not seen the book but this is a much more satisfying way
>of doing the scene.

How about in Charlie X when Captain Kirk beats Spock. Spock says something
like "Your illogical manner of playing chess sometimes has it's advantages".
If that's not exactly right, which wouldn't surprise me, I'm sure the poster
will fix it. Anyway, Kirk beat him, so why couldn't McCoy beat him?


>>
>>> STAR TREK says emotion is better than logic;
>>
>>On the contrary, Star Trek says they are different, neither is superior.
>>Accept both as useful in their own circumstances.  IDIC.
>
>Maybe that is what they are saying, since I think everyone involved
>thinks Spock is pretty useful to have aboard.  I am not sure in what
>situations the emotional mind is actually better than the logical one.
>An unfeeling piece of logical machinery, assuming it is properly
>programmed for the situations it will face, and assuming that
>programming has the proper sets of priorities, should match or beat the
>emotional approach every time.
>

An example when logic doesn't win: The Cobermite Maneuver,
Spock likens the battle of wits between the Enterprise and the First Federation
to a game of chess, in which they've lost. But Kirk says, "Not chess, poker",
and then uses the Cobermite bluff to get out of that situation.

>>> Spock denied being human (he does so in ST3).
>>
>>Context, please?
>
>Sorry it was ST2.  I was listening to it as I was writing.  I haven't
>had a chance to go back and find the line again.

It takes place when Spock goes to save the Enterprise. McCoy says,
"No human can survive the radiation thats in there!". To which Spock
replies, "As you are most fond of saying Doctor, I am not human."

(Remember all the times McCoy says, "You green-blooded, inhuman....")

>>
>>> [the eulogy] was a comment that . . . Spock, if he were alive, would
>>> have denied . . .
>>
>>I disagree strongly.  He would have said, "Why, thank you, Captain."
>
>He did point out that he wasn't human in ST2 so I disagree with you.

Still, it was meant as compliment. I thought it was proper. Kirk wasn't
saying that Spock was a human being, folks. When he said, "of all of
the souls I have ever met, his was the most human.", he meant that Spock
had shown the ideals of humanity more than anyone else. 

Let's look at some of the "human" things Spock has done...

He endangered his career to save Captain Pike, with whom he had served
 on the Enterprise.
He saved a few Enterprise crewmen in different episodes at the risk of
 his own life (Ens. Garavick, Stiles, etc)
He sacrificed his life to save everyone on board the Enterprise.

There are others, but I just can't think of them, I'm sure other
people can add to this list, but even those two are human, especially the
first one. Do you think that Spock would've thought of taking someone else
to Tarsis 4? I don't. There is logic in what Spock did, but if Spock was
human, he would have done the same. To me, that's what Kirk meant by saying
"his was most human". Just think about that for a while.

				-Sean "Yoda" Rouse

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