Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site decwrl.DEC.COM
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nanook!alpert
From: alpert@nanook.DEC (ingsoc goodthink doubleplusgood @MHO/DTN 2632172)
Newsgroups: net.taxes
Subject: Responses on Schiff stuff
Message-ID: <1177@decwrl.DEC.COM>
Date: Sun, 16-Feb-86 23:42:04 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.1177
Posted: Sun Feb 16 23:42:04 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 18-Feb-86 03:43:05 EST
Sender: daemon@decwrl.DEC.COM
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 81

[]

>	I'm always amused by people who try to show how income tax is
>unconstitutional. 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination?
>16th amendment not valid?

I personally do not find the thought that the American people have
been shafted for the last 70+ years amusing at all.  By the way,
the 5th Amendment says nothing about "self-incrimination." Why
is it that I get the feeling most people have not set their eyes
on the Constitution since falling asleep in some Social Studies
class long ago... 

>Do you really think they would say, "Okay, he's right, the government has to
>give everybody back the money they've paid since 1944, with interest. And
>not only that, but the government can't tax anybody's income anymore."

No. However, one dares to hope that a system of taxation that does not
involve theft, extortion, threat, and intimidation might someday become
a reality. 

The Constitution and Declaration of Independence should be required
reading for all -- it's very interesting to contrast what the role
of the Federal Government and its powers were intended to be with what
it has become.

To a certain extent, we are talking about political idealogy as much
as anything else.  If one believes in the principles of freedom and
liberty that this country was founded on, the current Federal government,
taxation system, and monetary system are abominations.

>	Actually, I think you missed a bet here. Schiff's statements
>are actually irrelevent, at least in my understanding of legal
>language. The true relevent question is whether the tax code contains
>the single word "shall" anywhere in reference to filing returns. As I
>understand the accepted usage in legal documents, the word "shall" by
>itself is sufficient to create a legal requirement...

In one of my previous Schiff articles, I cited the Supreme Court
decision stating that the word "shall" be translated as "may"
in matters where creating a requirement conflicts with the
Constitution.  I don't have the specific case or quote handy at
the moment, I can post if desired.

>         ...Also if the language of the sections of the code
>creating the IRS is anything like it is for such bodies as the
>Copyright Office and the FCC the powers of the IRS are indeed quite
>broad as far as making rules and regulations about the income tax.

I don't believe these powers would include the authority to override
citizen's Constitutional protections, the IRS routinely ignores these
in the course of its daily business.


Thank you all for your comments and input, I apologize for not having
more articles ready as promised, I hope to get some more info out this
week.  There is an incredible amount of material to assimilate, I can
only hope to present a small fraction in this forum.  I will be happy
to point anyone interested in more detailed information to sources.

Also, I am not trying to shove this material down anyone's throat.
If anyone wants to believe that the IRS is a legally run organisation
that serves the public good and that the Federal Government has the
legal and moral right to rummage through your personal financial affairs,
fine -- chances are those people will not be swayed unless they fall
under the wheels of the system, as some have. (Many of these 
have become the most vocal members of the tax movement!).   

I've received a little more news on Schiff, he has been released
and apparently will not be incarcerated during the appeal process.
The court did order a psychiatric examination, however! 

		"Fight Organized Crime -- Abolish the IRS"
				-seen on a bumper sticker

		Bob Alpert
		...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-chovax!alpert


	STANDARD DISCLAIMER:  These opinions are my own.