Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site mit-eddie.MIT.EDU Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!mit-eddie!gds From: gds@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Greg Skinner) Newsgroups: mod.music Subject: Love-Hounds Digest Message-ID: <1301@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU> Date: Mon, 17-Mar-86 10:21:22 EST Article-I.D.: mit-eddi.1301 Posted: Mon Mar 17 10:21:22 1986 Date-Received: Tue, 18-Mar-86 07:25:49 EST Organization: MIT Lusers and Hosers Inc., Cambridge, Ma. Lines: 1196 Approved: gds@eddie.mit.edu Love-Hounds Digest Monday, March 17, 1986, 10:23 Today's Topics: The great debate, new KB chart positions, and sticky love Cocteau et alia Letter From Ivo Why is this happening? More obscure lyrics Cocteau Re: Love-Hounds Digest Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast Re: big 10" of RUTH (3 msgs) Won't this unleash some messages? (2 msgs) band names vs. band quality I didn't get flamed like this even in net.music! I didn't come here for an argument. Rema Rema / CTwins (again?) / XTC Re: I didn't get flamed like this ... Obscenity. Andy Partridge ... Flippancy, gossip and Ed Asner's Gay. Flirting With Disaster (sonic youth discography) Re: Sonic Youth Peter Gabriel/profanity A few questions.. Phonetics and Skreikback [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Mar 86 00:20:00 EST From: nessus (Doug Alan) Subject: The great debate, new KB chart positions, and sticky love Many of you probably know, at least if you read net.music, that I can enjoy a good flame every now and then. Perhaps as pseudo-maintainer of this list, however, I find myself more in a position of responsibility, especially when I think of all the poor people out there who signed up so they could hear the latest fanzine drivel on Kate Bush, and didn't expect to get assaulted with reams on the latest moral issues on communication techniques in a widely networked environment. Therefore, I declare that as of tommorrow the debate on profranity is officially closed. So you better get your last words in quickly. All flames on the matter after tomorrow will have something very obscene done to them, but I'll not tell you what lest some people get upset. You guys shouldn't force me to become an evil censoring power hungry tyrant, however, because once I've tasted that sort of power, I will probably get cocky and start believing that I can do anything at all. The next thing you know, I'll be off in England camping out on Kate's front lawn until she gives me the 12" single for "Sat In Your Lap" (which she has like the only copy of). Either that or until she gives *me* the key, rather than this Houdini bloke.... And then there will be no one left to run this mailing list. Those who wish to continue to use profanities, may do so, but you should realize that when it appears in mod.music, Greg Skinner may perform some unpredictable transformation on what you have said to make it acceptible for the likes of cmoore@brl. Those who do not wich to read profanities, may unsubscribe, wear their official "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" peril sensitive glasses, or fluck off and die. Or perhaps if they ask me hard enough, I might provide a filter to transform "d*mn" into "darn", "sh*t" into "shoot", "G*d" into "golly" and "f*ck" into "play hide the salami". After running Love-Hounds through this filter, it should be acceptible even to those who find "Leave It To Beaver" too risque. "With my ego in my gut My babling mouth would wash it up But now I've started learning how (I keep it shut I keep it shut)" Doug ***** I would like to step in here and say a few words explaining my position. As the moderator of mod.music, I have a responsibility to the rest of USENET to provide a moderated service, free of the constant bickering and flaming that goes on in the net groups. I do not want to be an evil censoring tyrant, either. I received a few messages complaining about the high level of profanity in mod.music, and the fact that some sites might cut it off if it persisted. I felt obligated to modify the profanity, and to ask a few individuals not to use it unless they absolutely had to. As you well know, there is an "information overload" on USENET right now, and moderation is one of the ways in which this overload is being solved. The future of USENET may depend, in part, on the success of moderation, because moderation will enable certain groups (like this) to be transmitted by satellite. However, if the moderated groups don't differ from the net groups, they and the net groups may be grossly cut back. A number of people who contribute to love-hounds can only access it through USENET. Would you want to cut some of your friends off? I ask that you please use restraint wherever possible. Thank you, Greg Skinner (gregbo), The Moderator ***** P.S. For those who want some fanzine drivel: the last time I looked at Billboard, sometime last week, the single "Hounds of Love" had entered the British charts at 26, and the album had risen from 19 to 14. On the other hand, last week the album "Hounds of Love" just dropped out of the U.S. top 100. There will be a moment of silence. On the other hand, the album is still at number six on WFNX's chart. And here's a review by Andy Gill from the 1 March 86 issue of the NME for the HoL single: She'd say I'm sure, there's always been an erotic undercurrent to her work, but on the "Hounds of Love" LP it's handled with confidence, maturity, and daring largely absent in her earlier work; here as in "Running Up That Hill", desire is almost religious in its intensity. Does anyone have any idea why the NME decided that after N years of hating Kate Bush, it was suddenly okay to like her? And about this erotic undercurrent that's always been there... there are some things that have been puzzling me for a while. Like in "L'Amour Looks Something Like You" Kate sings at the end "I find I'm living in that evening with that feeling of sticky love inside". What is this feeling of sticky love inside? She's not talking about *seamen* is she? Gosh. Is the feeling of old seamen inside you something that is fun to remember? Perhaps some of the women on the list would like to elaborate. And in "Ran Tan Waltz" Kate sings "But some night she'll run back in fright if she picks on a Dick that's too big for her pride." I don't get it. Are all of the woman's extramarital boyfriends named "Dick"? And why would they be too big for her pride? Oh... golly, she's not talking about penises, is she? Well why would a penis be too big for the woman's pride? I don't get it. Could someone explain this to me. And once in an interview, Kate was asked what her favorite songs on "The Dreaming" were, and for one of them, she said "Nice To Swallow". Now, there's no "Nice To Swallow" on the album. There's "Night Of The Swallow", so Kate must be making a pun. But why "Nice To Swallow"? Oh, golly. She's not talking about penises again, is she?!? Or maybe seamen again? This reminds me of one of my friends who was in my M.I.T. dorm. He went to Wellsley for a semester as an exchange student. In a biology class there, the professor was talking about how seamen has a high salt content. One of the students blurted out "But it tastes so sweet!" and then she immediately looked very embarrassed. Maybe someone would like to elaborate and tell us whether or not seamen and/or penises are nice to swallow and whether seamen is salty or sweet. Well, I'm pretty confused now, but at least I can rest assured tonight that since I haven't used any profanities here, that at least *I* haven't offended anyone today. "Breathing the fallout in out in out in out in" Doug P.P.S. Isn't it strange that all this talk about obscenity started in the 69th posting to mod.music??? I think it's a message from G*d! But what does it mean? [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 05:38:36 PST From: francis@csvax.caltech.edu (Joseph Francis) Subject: Cocteau et alia So nice to know about this discourse... Cocteau was a master of surrealism, literary, drawing, and made wonderful movies like ``Orpheus''. There are some good stills in the Edition #4 of THE MANIPULATOR, for those who like magazines 3 times the areal size of INTERVIEW. So what of this music scene? Is this a group beyond 23 SKIDOO? Does everyone love FLOWERPOT MEN? What is the style/sound of current discussion? J O E [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 8:46:11 EST From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Subject: Letter From Ivo This is reprinted from the latest issue of the Offense Newsletter, which is a pretty good monthly that follows bands like The Fall, The Cocteau Twins, The Buttholes and Nick Cave. It also features tons of creative record and zine reviews and scribblin's from scenesters from all over the USA including John "Baboon Dooley" Crawford, Fred Mills, Chet Howland and the net's very own SB Tobias. It gets a little too cheerleaderish at times when the editor is talking about his godheads but that's what a fanzine is all about, I guess. Send a SASE to The Offense Newsletter, PO Box 12614, Columbus, Oh 43214 for subscription or sample issue information. ---- cut here ---- Tim, I thought I'd give you an update on our activities and plans. Our first releases will be a 12" by a Dutch singer, with a rather remarable voice, called Richenel and an LP (Victoria Land) by the Cocteaus. This LP, which I'm totally in love with, is somewhat different. On their return from the U.S. Robin and Liz decided they wanted to go into the studio with just an acoustic guitar (and racks of Robin's effects) and see what happened. The resultant three tracks were remarkable -- so they wrote and recorded another six which have all become Victoria Land. Simon's not on the record but Richard, from Dif Juz, plays sax on three songs and there are virtually no drums. Even before we release the LP (late March?) they will have started work on another LP with Simon. The Wolfgang Press are currently recording a new LP and Colourbox an EP. Everyone is working on their individual contributions for a compilation of new material which will be accompanied by a 23 Envelope-directed video. Word still continues on the This Mortal Coil LP, and I'm still talking to Throwing Muses, from Boston, about an album. Sometime this month I hope to finalize licensing arrangements for an LP of traditional Bulgarian folk songs entitled Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares. Also planned in '86 will be Colourbox, Xymox, and Dif Juz LPs. Since our meeting with Harold Budd in L.A. last September discussions still continue concerning a possible collaboration between him and the Cocteaus. I've also asked Pieter, of Xymox, if he would like to record a solo LP. As you can see from all of this, I anticipate being somewhat busy simply coordinating probably more releases in one year than we've had since 1980. I hope it'll all be worthwhile. Ivo Watts-Russell London England 4 A D Records. [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 09:43:57 EST From: harvard!bu-cs!sam (Shelli Meyers) Subject: Why is this happening? This is terrible...the one thing we all left net.music life for and here we are doing it all over again. I'm not even gonna discuss what I think is right or wrong? What does it matter? It'll just be fuel for the fire. I think I'm going to want off this mailing list very soon. --Shelli [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 09:52:02 EST From: harvard!bu-cs!sam (Shelli Meyers) Subject: More obscure lyrics Well, after we figure out whether or not Liz is saying "you suck", here's another something to ponder: Remember Berlin, Pleasure Victim? And the most enticing song played on the radio ever at the time: Sex. At the end of the song, after all the moaning and groaning, she sorta whispers something. A friend of mine saw Berlin in concert and swears she heard, (faint hearts hit control-c) "F*ck me up the butt." Is this what she says on the album? I SORTA hear it, but I remember what people said about the power of suggestion.... Can anybody substantiate this? Certainly is crude, isn't it, no wonder they only ever played the first half on the radio.... And NO I don't spend all my time listening for dirty words on albums! Okay???!!!!!!!!!!! --------- "The first time I heard there were problems in the Middle East, I thought they were talking about Pittsburgh!" --Shelli [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 11:05:00 EST From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu) Subject: Cocteau Jean Cocteau was also associated with (but not one of, I don't think) the group of French composers known as Les Six. Their spiritual mentor was Satie, and most of their music was a neo-classical reaction against romantic excesses. Try Poulenc's piano concerto for some humorous fake Mozart. Cocteau also wrote words for operas and musical works for the stage, including some stuff with Stravinsky. Most of the music Cocteau was associated with does not sound like what I've heard from the Cocteau Twins. Probably just another cute meaningless band name (I love cute meaningless band names :-) Many of Cocteau's contemporaries considered him to be a diletante and did not take him seriously. His novel Les Enfants Terribles is fun if you're into decadence... Bill Hsu [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 10:57:20 EST From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Subject: Re: Love-Hounds Digest Question: Why is the 11" of RUTH hard to tape? I'm making a tape for a well known net.music.kate-bush-hater and want to know details such as this before I start. 5 cents to the person who guesses correctly with whom I am trading tapes. ---- Cute Usenet signoff quote: Keep your cool and read the rules Cute Usenet nickname: Mu Cute Convoluted Usenet path: sequent!riacs!amsaa!hofmann [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 11:20:36 EST From: Laura Frank Clifford Subject: Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast Jean Cocteau also directed one of my '10 favorite films of all time' - "Beauty and the Beast". [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 09:57:18 PST From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes) Subject: Re: big 10" of RUTH Really-From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Question: Why is the 11" of RUTH hard to tape? A whole bunch of things. First of all, it's one big f*cking crescendo, spanning a W I D E range of signal strength. It took me three times to get it right, and it's a pain. Also, there's this damn pounding bass that just overloads the rest of the signal. Kate needs to learn a bit more about production of danse-mixers ... 5 cents to the person who guesses correctly with whom I am trading tapes. Uh. Simple. bu-bu-bu-bub? (PROMENADE!) ... pay up, slick. /jordan [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 12:00:48 EST From: CUTTER%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Local UMass address is Cutter@Mailer.CY175) Subject: Won't this unleash some messages? OK, I admit it. I've never heard any Kate Bush other than "Running Up That Hill" and her b-vox on "peter gabriel III". The first time I heard her solo was when WFNX played RUTH back in the summer. I liked it immediately, but had not the funds to buy the album. Now that I'm financially solvent again, I want to get some of her stuff. My question is: What would be considered a KB "starter"? In other words, what of KB's should I get first, and what should I absolutely avoid? What is valuable if I see it lying in Second Coming Records, and what is a rip-off? Joe Turner {decvax,ima,linus}!cca!ringwld!cutter cutter@umb.csnet rg.cutter@oz.lcs.mit.edu take your pick... "The safety pin returns my smile, I nod a brief hello, While you are building molecules with your garden hoe." - Beatles [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 13:25:50 EST From: nessus (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: big 10" of RUTH > From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes) >> Question: Why is the 11" of RUTH hard to tape? > A whole bunch of things. First of all, it's one big f*cking crescendo, > spanning a W I D E range of signal strength. It took me three times to > get it right, and it's a pain. Also, there's this damn pounding bass > that just overloads the rest of the signal. Kate needs to learn a bit > more about production of danse-mixers ... Now, wait one flucking second! ("Flucking" isn't obscene it?) Why does using all of the power of the medium provided provided by 12" singles imply that Kate has anything to learn about production of dance mixes? Kate has said that she likes 12" singles specifically because they give her more dynamic range and bass response to work with. I think that the 12" single is great exactly for the reasons you mention. (Except when I played the tape of it in my car -- my door speakers have never been quite the same since...) "Be running up that building" Doug [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 11:16:29 PST From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes) Subject: Re: big 10" of RUTH Really-From: nessus (Doug Alan) Why does using all of the power of the medium provided provided by 12" singles imply that Kate has anything to learn about production of dance mixes? Because we're not talking about using all the extra bandwidth of a 12" (ever notice how the grooves are further apart? Does wonders for the response of it ...) -- we're talking about the distortion that results from this over production. I can hear it, and can even record it as crosstalk when the track starts and ends. Witness, on the other hand `I feel love / Johnny Remember me' by Bronski Beat / Marc Almond. Now there is a really good re-mix. It, too, has a crescendo in the signal strength, but it comes at the transition between the two songs ... which also doubles the beat into a frenzy and cues in the whole band. Kate has said that she likes 12" singles specifically because they give her more dynamic range and bass response to work with. I think that the 12" single is great exactly for the reasons you mention. Well, fine, but it's a bitch to tape, and my tape deck has more dynamic range and bass response than my turntable. I can just imagine what that master looks like. Actually, I can hear it. /jordan [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 14:39:39 EST From: nessus (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: Won't this unleash some messages? > From: CUTTER%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU > My question is: What would be considered a KB "starter"? Get either "The Dreaming" ('The best album ever recorded' --DA) or "Hounds of Love". Preferably both. > In other words, what of KB's should I get first, and what should I > absolutely avoid? There is nothing by KB to avoid. It's all great! However, don't get anything other than the two albums mentioned above until you already have those two. The reason for this is that earlier KB is an acquired taste -- an acquired taste that you may not necessarily desire to acquire unless you already love some of her other music. Recent KB is much different and is also an acquired taste (especially "The Dreaming"), but you've already acquired the taste for this sort of thing if you like Peter Gabriel. > What is valuable if I see it lying in Second Coming Records, and what > is a rip-off? KB doesn't rip anyone off. Import 12" singles can be rather expensive, however. "Some say that knowledge is ha ho ho" Doug [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 14:54:43 EST From: David Oskard Subject: band names vs. band quality I actually think there is a lot that can be told from a bands name alone. If a band has a creative name (i.e. what was it? Screaming Iguanas in Love?) chances are that they are on the whole, making some creative music (hopefully). This doesn't always work of course, but having had a radio show at U Md. for 3 years, I've found some of the most incredible music just by pickin' em out, either by the album cover or the name of the band. That's how I found Pink Industry and Regressive Aid (does anyone know the scoop on these guys? --the record got stolen out of the studio and then of course my quality (ahem) Memorex busted.) ...and another thing. An interesting name is much more fun to say over the air--you can even get away with saying obscenities that way, not that I would ever dream of such a transgression. Hey, has anyone heard of Delay Tactics? They're Canadian I believe. One last hint for all you risk-takers out there: some of the most bizarre musical noises are found on records with very minimalist album covers--this may be due to the bizarre == limited budget factor, but I must stop this rambling don't you think? later....... David (dno@cvl.umd.edu) Be good or be otherwise. [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1986 16:33 EST From: David M. Hardy Subject: I didn't get flamed like this even in net.music! > From: Jordan@ucbarpa.berkely.edu > ... has become commonplace. Look, we're living in an immoral world, > and I don't think you should project your morality on a group of > people who you associate with by choice. > That's called oppression. Does living in an immoral world give you the right to be immoral??? I said nothing about morality. If you think that I am 'projecting' 'morality' then you misinterpreted what I said. I am not forcing anything on anyone, merely STATING MY OPINION. My saying I don't like something is no different than people saying they like it. It's just an opposing view. Do you really expect that people are going to stop swearing just because I find it objectionable and unnecessary?? I certainly don't. I didn't tell anyone to stop doing it; I even said that probably NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN about it. And to call my opinion 'opression' is simply laughable. (How do you express a laugh on a computer. A smiley face just won't do it.) > ... Being offensive is a right > that I covet strongly. Notice that I don't implore you to swear ... And you can go right on being offensive. I also can go right on disliking it, and either ignore it, or bring it up if I want to. Why did you take a GENERAL posting so PERSONALLY anyway?? You're not the only offensive person in the world. Did you think I was referring to something you specifically said? Actually I havn't kept count of who swears and who doesn't. > position of being adult enough that if you can't take the discussions > going on here seriously that you would unsubscribe. I don't think we're I already said once that I wasn't going to go away. I guess it didnt sink in. I can take SOME of the discussions here quite seriously. I've even gotten some music I liked from listening to what people say here. I don't think much of it in real life if someone talks like that, and the same goes for here. > Right, but you are trying to force a moral issue. That makes you a > wimp, geek AND a weenie to boot. Resorting to name calling? And you had the audacity to mention 'adult'? It's laugh time again..... And I already said once I'm not forcing anything (Do you really think I could?) And what's a weenie? Are you calling me a hotdog? That could be taken as a compliment... >> Flames and obscenities to /dev/null... > That's real brave of you. Throw in your two cents worth and then say > "I won't listen to your side". The reason I wrote the message I did is because I have ALREADY heard enough of what the type of people who swear have to say. Repeatedly. If you want to flame me for stating my opinion you go right ahead and continue doing it. You won't change it no matter how hard you try. Neither will anyone else. All of the things I said are true for ME, and no amount of flaming will change them. You can try if you like, but why not do it by personal mail? I can't believe I actually have to EXPLAIN this. There is no other side to an opinion. There are just different ones. I feel that if I did not say anything about this, then many people would assume that it was alright because it was happening and nobody DID say anything about it. > From: "James J. Lippard" > That's bull...., and this sentence is an illustration of why. What is that supposed to mean? The sentence in question is absolutely true based on MY experiences. Yours may differ. (just like highway mileage :-)) Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true for me and doesn't give me any less right to say it. > I could have > said "That's nonsense", but it would not have come across as strong and would > not have adequately expressed what I wanted. You have NOT adequately expressed yourself. Using profanity did not help you. There are plenty of good words in the English language and I don't understand the need to have to resort to and keep repeating the same ones when you can't think of anything else to say. But then again, and this is something I shouldn't even have to say, that is MY opinion. You didn't make any attempt to explain YOUR opinion on what was wrong with the aforementioned sentence. > BTW, David, in your message about Les Miserables, I was unable to tell that > you considered it to be the best album of 1986 until you said so. Saying that > it's "highly recommended" and "very well worth it" and that you were "mostly > impressed" doesn't make it sound all that great. I think you could have > expressed your opinion more strongly by using a good metaphor and still > avoided vulgarity, but it would have been much easier just to say "it's That's why I said so. Although the part where I said I looked all over Boston for it and was depressed at not finding it should have given you some idea that it wasn't just any old record. 'Very well worth it' and 'Highly recommended' are high praise indeed for me. To use profanity in trying to describe it not only might offend prospective listeners but would also degrade the character of my posting (notwithstanding the fact that it may have no worth at all if nobody here likes musicals). Like I said, I'm no language expert. If I even know any good metaphors I didn't think of one to use there. But I still didn't have to resort to the degradation of profanity. I suppose profanity has some uses in times of extreme pain or emotional distress, but certainly not in discussions of music. Remember, this is all just my opinion. I hope somebody agrees that 'Les Miserables' is whatever you want to call it to describe a wonderful piece of music, and I know some people agree with my views on profanity, but if you want to continue flaming me, let's not clutter up love-hounds with it. >>> Dave [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1986 16:34 EST From: David M. Hardy Subject: I didn't come here for an argument. }i > From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu) > David Hardy (paraphrase): Widespread use of obscenities shows a deficiency > in the ability to communicate > I personally don't think that using obscenities has anything to do > with somebody's ability to communicate. A much better benchmark is to > see if they love convoluted sentences like mine :-) :-) This was not the point of my posting, only one sentence in it. But at least the poster of this was able to explain himself without name calling or more profanity. This says something about communication to me right away, and helps (at least to me) to emphasize some of what I said. > Seriously, I've known people who write and talk brilliantly AND use > lots of obscenities/profanities (e.g., Allen Ginsburg :-) :-) There's > obviously no correlation between the two. ~rI'm not out to try and come up with a proof of some correlation; only stating some observances of mine in the last few months or so. That's a correlation TO ME, obviously not to everyone. It's very simple. The nicest, most interesting people I've talked to don't swear at me. By the way, who is Allen Ginsburg? [][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Rema Rema / CTwins (again?) / XTC Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 14:04:05 -0800 From: J. Peter Alfke ########### # WARNING # This message contains one (1) dirty word of the "s" variety. ########### Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA writes: >Up until this point, I didn't know >of Big Black doing any covers but Albini kept referring >to this Rema, Rema as if everyone should know what he was >talking about. Probably an inside joke ... I haven't the >foggiest. The label says Rema, Rema was written >by someone named Rema Rema of whom I have never heard. I don't know who/what Rema Rema is/are/was/were either, but the song "Fond Affections" on the "This Mortal Coil" LP (most of which are covers, performed by various people on the 4AD label) is listed as having been written by him/her/them/it. And "Fond Affections" sounds absolutely nothing like what you describe that "Rema, Rema" song as sounding like . . . this is some horrible in-joke that everyone knows about but me, right? And you'll all start laughing after I post this message, right? ************ "James J. Lippard" writes: >Are they named after Jean Cocteau, the French writer and Grand Master of >the Prieure' de Sion ... ? The Trouser Press Guide to New-Wave records states that "the name derives from an old Simple Minds song". Being unfamiliar with the Simple Minds' old, presumably good, stuff that doesn't get played on the radio like their new sh*t [yes, I do think that was the correct word], I have no idea what they're talking about. Does anyone know? And where did the Simple Minds get it from? ************ ... and just to bring up a new topic, does anyone know the lowdown on the fate of XTC ? Last I heard, unsubstantiated rumor had it they'd broken up due to Virgin kicking them out. Can it be? What a shame, as the "Dukes of Statosphear" thingy was the best album they'd done since "English Settlement" ... --Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 15:28:10 PST From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes) Subject: Re: I didn't get flamed like this ... [ skip to the end for the musak question ] Really-From: David M. Hardy It's very simple. The nicest, most interesting people I've talked to don't swear at me. Well, if I say "this is the best f*cking band i ever heard" and you say "Hey -- he swore at me!" then we had better stop right here. Close your mind to people who don't speak the way you want them to and you're losing out. By the way, who is Allen Ginsburg? I believe it's Ginsberg. Beat-era poet; old friend of Jack Kerouac and William Burroughs; got a little into bad-crazy drugs a while back and now is into poetry as a means to political change; occasional rapper for The Clash :-) (read some socio-politico-big-city-mean-government-lets-kill-the-contras poem on "Sandinista!" ...). > From: Jordan@ucbarpa.berkely.edu Next time you transcribe my writing, try spelling berkelEy correctly and why did you capitalize my login name? I sign my postings in lower case, why did you change it? No big deal, just curious. > ... has become commonplace. Look, we're living in an immoral world, > and I don't think you should project your morality on a group of > people who you associate with by choice. > That's called oppression. Does living in an immoral world give you the right to be immoral??? RIGHT to be IMMORAL ? Give me a break. I said nothing about morality. Bullsh*t. If you think that I am 'projecting' 'morality' then you misinterpreted what I said. I am not forcing anything on anyone, merely STATING MY OPINION. Look. You came out here and started flamming about people who were "obscene" and how you can't take them seriously and then you pleaded for "us" to stop. I'd say that's projecting. Why did you take a GENERAL posting so PERSONALLY anyway?? You're not the only offensive person in the world. I don't recall taking your posting personally. However, I think that the label "general" is a bit deceiving. Can you really expect that you can say something to everyone (i.e., the whole list) and yet to no one? Besides, you said that you couldn't take seriously anyone who couldn't express themselves without using "those words" ... well, I count myself among the group you list as the target for your words. Therefore, I will address my thoughts to you on that basis. When I address this list, I address each reader personally, although not by name. > Right, but you are trying to force a moral issue. That makes > you a wimp, geek AND a weenie to boot. Resorting to name calling? And you had the audacity to mention 'adult'? It's laugh time again..... And I already said once I'm not forcing anything (Do you really think I could?) And what's a weenie? Are you calling me a hotdog? That could be taken as a compliment... I couldn't believe (and still can't) that you would suffix your moral majority trash with a "and I'm not a geek, I just don't like to read those naughty words" ... what kind of statement is that? I called you a weenie just because of that statement. As for the connotation of a weenie, we have these interesting things in English (perhaps not *king's* english ...) called idioms. See, that lets us give arbitrary tags to concepts without being suffocated by purists. Arbitraryness is what makes languages different from pictograms and idiograms. Grow up. >> Flames and obscenities to /dev/null... > That's real brave of you. Throw in your two cents worth and > then say "I won't listen to your side". The reason I wrote the message I did is because I have ALREADY heard enough of what the type of people who swear have to say. Then what on earth did you hope to prove by your posting? If you want to flame me for stating my opinion you go right ahead and continue doing it. You won't change it no matter how hard you try. Neither will anyone else. All of the things I said are true for ME, and no amount of flaming will change them. That's terrific. I don't want to change you. But I won't have you telling me what to do or say. That's my reaction to it. People tell me what to do, and I tell them to f*ck off. Try expressing that without `f*ck'. You have NOT adequately expressed yourself. Using profanity did not help you. There are plenty of good words in the English language and I don't understand the need to have to resort to and keep repeating the same ones when you can't think of anything else to say. I don't think this is true at all. Language is an ineffective descriptive system. Read a little Jacques Derida and then come talk to me. Repeating ones I've already used because I can't think of anything else to say? I can't believe you are saying things like this. Like I said, I'm no language expert. Q.E.D. A friend of mine was in a 24-hour store near Cambridge when the guy in front of him walked into the express line (6 items or less) with 9 things. The girl ("women" we usta call 'em...) behind the register said "So, do you go to Harvard and can't count or MIT and can't read?" This makes much more sense now. Maybe you could take one of Chomsky's classes over there, right? Have fun on your VM system. jordan "sarcastic bastard" hayes ps: oh - the music element in this posting: why did I wait so long to buy the Billy Bragg album that I heard a year ago? Damn. [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu 13 Mar 86 15:53:14-PST From: Bob Knight Subject: Obscenity. I think it's pretty damned obscene to flame on a music mailing list. That's why net.music got the big u from me a while back (after I posted an appropriately obscene message. Didn't even get flamed for it privately, which tells me it WAS appropriate and might have even come close to its target). At any rate, can we can the argument? Those of us who are sleazeballs are gonna remain so, and those of us who get offended at sleazeballs' language habits are gonna remain offended. Me, my give-a-sh*tter's broke. On to something I've been meaning to post for awhile. Just got the Sandy Denny boxed set Who Knows Where The Time Goes. Four records of amazing stuff. Absolutely must've been a labor of love by Trevor Lucas (her husband), Richard Thompson, etc. I damn near cried listening to all this neat stuff and reading the lyrics and looking at the pictures. Now I gotta admit I'm a big Sandy Denny fan. Have been for years. But I think this is one fine introduction to her music for someone who isn't familiar with it, and well worth the $20 I laid out for it. Check it out. It's great music, even if it is "folkie sh*t"... Bob ------- [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 19:29:42 EST From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu) To echo Shelli's plea, enough already, please cool it! Don't let this become another net.music. Sorry I spelled Allen Ginsberg's name wrong. Boy, have I been embarrassing myself lately. Let's see: Ginsberg, Ginsberg, Ginsberg... Re: XTC! One of my favorites before MUMMER. Somehow XTC isn't very convincing without the toughness of BLACK SEA (or even English Settlement). DUKES OF THE STRATOSPHERE, for you non-XTC fans, is a fake psychedelic mini-album. I find it great fun, tho no classic like BLACK SEA. Maybe Andy Partridge just got tired of jagged guitar figures and vicious anti-dance rhythms... Bill Hsu [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 16:54:36 PST From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes) Subject: Andy Partridge ... Really-From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu) Maybe Andy Partridge just got tired of jagged guitar figures and vicious anti-dance rhythms... I hear he's just too scared to come out of his apartment ... /jordan [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 17:02:42 EST From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Subject: Flippancy, gossip and Ed Asner's Gay. $$ On my mystery tape trading partner: Wrong-o, Jordan, guess again or ask Doug - he guessed it correctly and will be recieving one four cent stamp and a penny by email... $$ From a guy who's header I deleted: > "The safety pin returns my smile, I nod a brief hello, > While you are building molecules with your garden hoe." - Beatles Speaking of the Beatles, I heard from the guitarist from our local one-hit band, The Ravyns, that he heard it personally from Jeff Beck, former Yardbyrd guitarist, that he feels the Beatles suck because "they don't play rock and roll." Ho-hum... $$ From Doug: > ("Flucking" isn't obscene it?) Only if your a chicken. Why? >From another guy who's header I deleted: > Be good or be otherwise. Keep your cool and follow the rules. The Butthole Surfers on the Texan scene: "There's this band called Ed Asner's Gay that does an acoustic set in lime-green leisure suts with cheesy padding and they're all wearing latex masks that look like Ed Asner; they're great they run around like bumper cars." stay tuned for more ... Jim [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 17:18:55 EST From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Subject: Flirting With Disaster (sonic youth discography) I really don't want to put my "two cents" in about profanity vs. censoring BUT I've been meaning for awhile to write some "fanzine drivel" about one of my favorite bands these days and find it a bit hard not to use certain words since alot of their albums have what some would consider profanity in the titles. So, if you find the use of profanity in a posting discussing music distasteful - PLEASE CLOSE YOUR EYES!!! TURN YOUR TERMINAL OFF!!! TAKE 3 BOWS TOWARDS THE EAST AND PROSTRATE YOURSELF IN FRONT OF ... whoops, got carried away there ... I want to say something about the Sonic Youth. They've been together for over 4 years now and have been through as many drummers. Their current lineup is the core guitarist and bassist/songwriters/singers/husband and wife team of Thurston Moore and Kim Gordon. Also serving on an apparently permanent basis is guitarist Lee Renaldo. Their current drummer is ex-Crucif*ck Steve Shelley. If you didn't know already, they've left Homestead for SST after the majors rejected them despite Robert Palmer of the New York Times raving that given enough studio support, they could become the next Beatles. (Cosloy (owner of Homestead) sent some promos and the Palmer clipping to some majors who reportedly wrote back, "are you sure you have the right band here?") How to describe their music? It has the same rawness and intensity of early 80's hardcore that's for sure. And they reject the use of complex machines to make noise or sounds, instead relying as they put it "on their heads" by sticking drumsticks and rods into their guitars. They also experiment with strange guitar tunings (EGBDFE instead of the standard EADGBE) and collaborate with Lydia Lunch, Airto Lindsay and Glenn Branca. In many ways, they are as gothic as The Fall but not in the fey, English manner. They're more like Swamp Thing (excellent comic book) meets CCR. If you want a good introduction, check out the Death Valley EP of last year. Be forewarned, this EP plays at 45 RPM on the title side and 33 RPM on the other side, though I sometimes adjust it for my mood ... leaving you with four possible ways (if you just have 45 and 33 settings) to listen to this gem. I wonder, Doug, do you do this with Kate? -:-) Here's a discography (sans collaborations and compilations) Sonic Youth [ Neutral Records EP, 1982 ] Confusion is Sex [ Neutral EP, 1983 ] Kill Yr Idols [ Zensor Records EP, 1984 ] "Death Valley `69'" b/w "Brave Men Run" [ Irredescence Records 7", 1984 ] Sonic Death [ Excstatic Peace Cassette, 1984 ] Bad Moon Rising [ Homestead LP, 1985 ] Death Valley [ Homestead EP, 1985 ] "Making the Nature Scene" b/w with "I Killed Christgau with My Big F*cking Dick" [ Forced Exposure, 1985 ] "Flower" b/w "Halloween" [ Homestead 12", Feb 86 ] ... I haven't heard the above yet - has anyone else? Bill? ... E.V.O.L. (tentative title - anyone know what it means?) [SST (!!!), June '86] The only difference between the DV Homestead EP (or so I've been told) and the Irredescence 7" title track is that Lydia Lunch is overdubbed singing/ screaming al la Exene Cervanka ... The Death Valley Homestead release comes with a mighty fine interview in the lyric sheet and liner notes. If anyone has heard the first three releases as well as the cassette, I'd like to hear from you. ---- more from the Buttholes: Interviewer: What kind of sound do you get? Paul: You could call it a link between psychic space travel and bowel movements. Gibby: It's sort of wipe-abilly. stay tuned for even more mayhem and madness.... Jim [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 23:54:37 EST From: hsut@ec.purdue.edu (Tsun-Yuk Hsu) Subject: Re: Sonic Youth Thanks to Jim Hofmann for the Sonic Youth discography! Despite making sly asides all the time about how great Sonic Youth is, I only have one of their albums (which gets played ALOT), Bad Moon Rising. It still blows me away everytime I put it on. I do have the song "Halloween", but from the compilation album A Diamond Hidden in the Mouth of a Dead Man (Giorno Poetry Systems) with great groups like Sonic Youth, Carbaret Voltaire, David Johannsen, Coil, and spoken pieces from William Burroughs and Michael Gira (of the Swans?) I didn't think much of Halloween; it was nice, but not up to the high standards I expected after Bad Moon Rising. It's been awhile since I've heard it, so I should probably listen to it again before making rash dismissals... One of Christgau's few redeeming features: in his ballot for the Voice's poll, he actually listed Sonic Youth's anti-Christgau song!! At least the guy has a sense of humor... I don't think Sonic Youth sounds much like early hardcore, but what do I know about early hardcore... they do truly amazing things with their guitars: they ring like bells or mangle your speakers with the feedback. I'll have to write Homestead for more Sonic Youth sometime... "Society is a hole It makes me lie to my friends" Bill Hsu [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Mar 86 01:28:13 EST From: JURGEN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Local UMass address is Ziggy Cyber@Mailer.CY175) Subject: Peter Gabriel/profanity Cutter, Peter Gabriel's new album (i don't know what it's called) is scheduled to come out in June i think. He is also going to tour after or coinciding with the release. ... About profanity in this list.. This is a list about progressive music. Fact is that while a lot of the music discussed here wouldn't be called punk, as we could see from recent discussion, most of the participants here are familiar with groups like the "Butthole Sufers". Trademark of progressive music & punk is that it is often trying to make a unique statement of individuality, and shock value is one aspect of that. You may not agree that it is a very valid form of expression, but i say profanity has its finer points. heh. ... Anyway, you would find that a lot of the people of the kind who send to this file use profanity heavily in their every-day language, and it would be only stupid pretentionism for anyone to stop doing the same when writing to the digest. And pretentionism and other such fake behavior is one of the prime targets of punk rock lyriks, as most of us well know. Again, just look at the ongoing discussion about The Butthole surfers. So, while i myself don't tend to be overly obscene, especially when i am writing, i would not even think of telling else anyone not to. see you on the bitstream - Ziggy Cyber [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Mar 86 02:04:29 EST From: Serling%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Living in the Twilight Zone ) Subject: A few questions.. 1) In reading this digest, I've seen a number of *gag*'s in reference to 'trashy' music magazines. Are there ANY resepectable ones out there? My local record store gets Melody Maker from England, and I'm told it's pretty good. 2) I've taken to Shriekback the minute I picked up their latest album. In my travels, here's what I've picked up: Care The Infinite Jam Science Oil and Gold Sexthinkone Mercy Dash Nemesis Fish Below the Ice Sex and Knowledge and Wealth and Power and one other off of Care whose name escapes me... I am also aware of the existance of a completely different version of Jam Science, which came about due to producer problems. Can anyone give me some history of he band, and perhaps fill in anything I'm not aware of? 3) Due to my nature, being a fan of a band envokes within me the desire to obtain everything they've done. Are there any places one can find a disco- graphy? I've seen some interesting guides in my searches, but nothing terribly current Any references? "Kiss me stupid, love me dead..." Mitch [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Mar 86 03:40:58 EST From: nessus (Doug Alan) Subject: Phonetics and Skreikback Speaking of Shriekback, the lyrics to "Oil and Gold" on the lyric sheet are written in some strange phonetic alphabet. Does anyone know where this particular phonetic alphabet came from or was it just invented for the lyric sheet? "Love has no meaning Not where they come from" Doug [][][][][][][][][][] -- It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, allegra, gatech, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds gds@eddie.mit.edu