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From: berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: Re: Slave labor built Siberian pipeline
Message-ID: <2030@psuvax1.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 19-Mar-86 00:58:50 EST
Article-I.D.: psuvax1.2030
Posted: Wed Mar 19 00:58:50 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 20-Mar-86 18:07:28 EST
References: <1685@decwrl.DEC.COM>
Organization: Pennsylvania State Univ.
Lines: 70

> >IN any case, thh whole point here is that while the Soviets may take things
> >to greater extremes, I cannot think of anything that the Soviets do, to their
> >own citizens, as well as to other nations, that we ourselves in the US do not
> >do, to some extent or another.
> >
>     Mr Keller I take great execption to this.  Tell me the last person who
> was internally exiled in the US without a trial.  Tell me the last person
> who disappeared without a trace in the US because of a government order to
> make them disappear.  How many people are placed in Mental wards because
> they disagree with the state.  Tell me what happens to people who decide to
> emigrate from the US?
>
>    There is a major difference besides extremes between the US and Soviet
> Union.  The US constitution guarentees basic human rights.  There are bounds
> on what the US government can and can not do. These bounds do not exist in
> the Soviet Union and never have. There is freedom in the US there is no
> freedom in the Soviet Union it is as simple as that.
>
>    (on dealing with other nations I tend to agree.  but I have yet to
>     see what happened in the Phillipeans happen in a client state of
>     the Soviet Union)
>
>    Brian Mahoney

I think that the issue with slave labor in USSR was mixed up with the
labor of prisoners.  It is true that in any reasonable penal system
the prisoners have the possibility to work, and that in many democratic
countries hard labor was an acceptable form of punishment.  One needs
to ask a question 'Are there state slaves in USSR?'.  According to
published documentation of human right groups, the answer is affirmative.
There is a group of political prisoners whith very long sentences and
which are propmtly encarcerated after each release.  Most often they
are Ukrainian nationalist.  Basically, they are slaves till the end
of their lives.  However, to my recollection, the camps which 'specialize'
nowadays in this kind of prisoners were far from the pipeline (in Mordovia
and in Perm district).

Second point to consider is harsh sentencing of petty criminals to create
more than million strong army of free laborers.  Very often they are
victims of massive 'campains' (like the recent campain agains alcoholism),
and, having legal system rather unfair, their 'crimes' are not proven
up to our standarts.  If those people would be considered 'slaves',
then there is a very good bet that some of them work for the pipeline.
On the other hand, in US one could find similar abuses, although on
many times smaller scale.

Third point to consider is the way the prisoners are forced to work.
In general, the nutrition in Soviet prison is poor (I think it would
qualify for a 'cruel punishment' in US).  If you do not work, you
get a ration substancially smaller.  Thus the prisoners work is enforced
by hunger, and as such it could qualify as 'slave work'.

Fourth point to consider is involuntary work.  In USSR you may be assigned
to live in a city chosen by the government, or to work for several years
in an assigned enterprise.  No crime is needed to get such a treatment.
Many remember perhaps that during Olimpics hundreds (or tens?) of
thousands of 'undesirables' were removed from Moscow.  Whenever you
live, you must work for a state enterprise.  This kind of labor has
'slave' elements, and is widely used.

Recapitulating, USSR has very few slaves resembling American slaves
in pre-1865 South, but it has some.  Additionally, it uses forced
labor on the scale unknown in the Western counties.

As 'advocate of the devil' I will point the following example.
Recently 'our friendly' Egypt experience a revolt of conscript
policemen.  The description of their conditions resembled very much
temporary slavery...

Piotr Berman