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From: carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: In the Name of God
Message-ID: <376@gargoyle.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 18-Mar-86 13:28:16 EST
Article-I.D.: gargoyle.376
Posted: Tue Mar 18 13:28:16 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 20-Mar-86 18:07:54 EST
References: <356@gargoyle.UUCP> <2188@jhunix.UUCP>
Reply-To: carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes)
Organization: U. of Chicago, Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 52

>>Since the American religious groups protesting US policy in Central
>>America are acting on the assumption that the US is a democratic
>>society in which it is possible to influence government policy by
>>popular pressure and appeals to morality, it follows that Mr.
>>Ferraiolo believes that the governments of the Soviet Union and China
>>and the Khmer Rouge are likewise democratic and responsive to
>>popular pressure and moral appeals even from religious groups in the
>>US, to say nothing of their own citizens.  [CARNES]
>
>No, I think what he's saying is something like a) if you selectively
>protest against bad government policy in democracies only, the effect
>is to de-emphasize the atrocities that non-democracies are
>responsible for... [KEN ARROMDEE]

Who has suggested protesting human rights abuses of democratic
governments only?  Look at my posting again, but this time read it.
Ferraiolo says that American religious groups are *hypocritical* when
they demonstrate against US policy but not against, say, Soviet
policy.  Since the religious groups are obviously trying to change or
influence US policy by their protests, it follows that Ferraiolo
believes that if they were not hypocritical and protested Soviet
policies too, the Kremlin would be influenced by this pressure and
might reconsider its occupation of Afghanistan and let all its Jewish
citizens emigrate.  Not only that, they might resuscitate the victims
of Stalin's purges.  So I nominated Guy for a Hero of Labor medal for
his exalted view of the Soviet leadership.  

>According to your reasoning, anyone in the US who complained
>about concentration camps during WWII believed that Nazi Germany was
>democratic and responsive to popular pressure and moral appeals.

According to your "reasoning", what I said was that any American who
complains about human rights abuses in authoritarian or totalitarian
countries believes that these countries are democratic and responsive
to public opinion.  But according to people who can read at the sixth
grade level or higher, I didn't say that or even imply it.  (I think
net.politics needs a remedial reading course more than information
about current events.  There must be some people out there who have
their secretaries read them the netnews.  "Thanks, honey -- now hit
the F-key so you can type my reply...")

Tom Keller explained the point well.  As a citizen of a democratic
republic, it is not only my right but my duty to speak out when I
believe my government's policies are foolish or immoral, in order to
(i) change or influence those policies if possible, and (ii)
influence public opinion in the US, raise the public consciousness,
and promote public debate on such issues.  That's how democracy is
supposed to work.  I don't speak out merely to point out that We're
better than They are, as Guy and others apparently suggest.  That's
how fascism is supposed to work.
-- 
Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes