Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site aero.ARPA Path: utzoo!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!aero!homeier From: homeier@aero.ARPA (Peter Homeier) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: "spiritual gifts" (Taken from "Hearing God's Voice") Message-ID: <328@aero.ARPA> Date: Thu, 13-Mar-86 19:16:51 EST Article-I.D.: aero.328 Posted: Thu Mar 13 19:16:51 1986 Date-Received: Sat, 15-Mar-86 02:42:52 EST References: <2322@burdvax.UUCP> Reply-To: homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) Distribution: na Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA Lines: 196 Dear Elizabeth, I really enjoyed your article, and felt that it raised a lot of godd points, where there is likely to be a good deal of discussion. I think you had a lot of courage, and I hope that you don't get stung for your openness! I'd like to comment myself on my understandings, so I'll first quote your article: First, Mike Andrews wrote, in article <26@cal-asd.fluke.UUCP>, >> just look at the Fruits of the Spirit >>today. I've witnessed people using the Gifts of the Spirit to help others >>really experience God's Love, and share it. I've been present at physical >>healings. Also seen people healed of mental torments brought on by >>unforgiveness or resentment. Listened to people give a word of knowledge >>which God later proved true. Over the years I've met people who God gave >>knowledge about me that they couldn't possibly know on their own. Mike, you have seen great wonders and beautiful miracles of God's Spirit in operation. I am thrilled that He has been ministering to you with such power. Thank you for sharing these experiences. You are such a blessing to all of us on the net. Please continue! I'd love to hear more details about what mighty things God has done. It encourages all of us to praise the Lord! >>I've also seen the Gifts abused - used by people who like to be known for >>what God has chosen them to do. And we've all seen or heard of people >>who have what appear to be gifts from God when in reality they bind others >>up to dependency on the `giver of the gift'. The discriminating factor does seem to be whether the gift brings release, freedom, and wholeness, or whether it brings bondage, works, and condemnation. I have seen that when the Gifts are ministered properly, people are enabled to grow and to possess more maturity, until they are able to stand by themselves. It is a strengthening and upbuilding process, where we edify one another, rather than supressing others or protecting our own position. Judge the works by their fruits. Then Elizabeth Purtell, alias "Lady Godiva", wrote in reply > I'm curious to know what people think about "spiritual abilities". >By that term I mean the ability that some people have to know the future >(whether by using cards, or some other medium, or just through >uncontrollable "visions"), to heal people (physically or emotionally), >to know things (we're not talking scam games "Sir, I can tell that you >are very perceptive and often view the world in a different way from >those around you", but people who really do know things about certain >people like Mike mentioned above) people who know when someone is in >trouble even though they're far away (anywhere from out of eyesight to >thousands of miles), empaths (people who can feel others physical and >emotional states as if they were their own), psychics, and other related >things. > Do you think they are all entirely phoney? (Only the physical >world exists.) Some are phoney, some are true? Are they all from God, >all from Satan or a mix? Are they just natural parts of people that we >choose to use as we please, for God, Satan, or ourselves? And if so, are >some people just naturally (meaning genetically or through how they were >raised as a child) better at some of these things than others? Elizabeth, what you bring up is the whole world of spiritual experience. There is so much here that needs to be sorted out. First, I believe that not all spiritual experiences are from God, but some are from the enemy, Satan. Such things as witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, ESP, consulting the dead, psychic powers, astral projection, and contacting spirits are condemned heavilly in the Bible as being works of the devil. They are not just called sins, they are called "abominations". "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. "You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. "For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you." -- Deuteronomy 18:10-14 In the succeeding verses, the Lord describes who has been appointed for us to listen to-- He describes, prophetically, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not that God is saying that these other evil spiritual devices do not work; if they were innocuously powerless, why would He be so furious at their use? Rather they have a real power, but they carry with them the nature of the dark forces they come from, and therefor any use of sorcery or psychic powers brings destruction and deep bondage to those who try to find guidance there. It is precisely because it wrecks such deep and lasting hurt in the lives of those who practice these that God hates them so vehemently. And there is probably no surer way to ruin your life than to go into these evil things. However, Satan cannot make up anything of his own; all he can do is pervert something that God has already created. God has already provided wonderful avenues of spiritual experience in Him that are not only O.K., but bring a great blessing upon those who become involved in them. These involve things that already have been mentioned on the network, such as being filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit, speaking with other languages, and the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. God wants us to go to Him for our guidance, for He loves us, unlike Satan, who wants only to "steal, kill, and destroy". Although we may have abilities or strength in ourselves, much of the Christian walk is concerned with us learning that all our strength and ability is insufficient. We learn to lay down our own ability to do things, but instead rely on the power of the Spirit. And boy, Elizabeth, then we can do things! We become empowered to accomplish things of eternal value, far beyond anything that we could even have conceived of before. He, being God, is not limited by our puny understandings and limitations. Through us as we submit to Him, He can change the course of nations, heal multitudes, bring salvation to benighted cultures, and soften hearts that never knew they could feel Spring again. > I guess that I should say what I believe about all of this since >I'm asking for what others think. I believe that some are true, some are >not. (For instance, I don't believe in astrology, but I'd defend empathy >as strongly as I'd defend my belief in God.) I also think that they are >a natural part of being human, and that some people are better at >certain things than others. (I think I'll test the water out there >before saying what I think my strengths are and what experiences I've >had with this sort of thing.) I was really interested when you mentioned empathy. This is a gift that the Lord has given me, beginning late last year. I use it while ministering to people in prayer. The Spirit has been placing their sufferring, their emotions of fear, loneliness, disgust, hatred, etc. on me for a while, and I feel the full weight of them. This can last for some time, depending on the severity of the emotional problem, while I am in my own body feeling the hurts that the person themselves may long ago have repressed and hidden from their concious mind. But through this release, the Lord brings the pain first to me, and then I give it to Him, and the person I am praying for receives healing in that area. It is an intensely powerful experience, and as much a blessing for me to minister it as it is for the person I am praying for. This gift, I am absolutely certain, comes from God the Holy Spirit. Believe me, there is no way I could do this or turn it on myself. It is God working through me in the power of His Spirit who does the healing. There is nothing so obvious to me as the fact that it is not I who accomplish it, it is God. Therefore I must say that I do not believe that this comes just as a natural part of being human. It is most definitely a gift from God. Now perhaps you had a different meaning for the word "empathy". If you just meant the common human sympathy or understanding, then sure, lots of people have that in themselves. But if you meant the power gift of healing people, then no, that gift only comes from God or the enemy. For the enemy tries to counterfeit everything that is found in God's Kingdom. But I also believe that not every believer has this gift of empathy from God. So I have a particular ministry, to pray for people for healing, just as others have ministries like evangelism or teaching, for which they have been given other gifts from God. This way we all fit together into a Body, where each part does its part in contributing to the whole. > The only scripture that I can offer to defend my position at the >moment (and this is paraphrased since I don't have my Bible with me) is >the one where Christ says that many will have driven out demons and >healed people, and I don't remember what else, in his name but >will not enter the kingdom of heaven. There are more than this >(I studied this somewhat a few years ago) but my mind isn't recalling >them right now. It took me a little while to really believe in the >things like this that I now believe in because I was raised in the >midwest with a lot of "common sense" values. I still have those, and >sometimes I have conflicts between these two things. > Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this? You are right, Christ did say that at the Ressurrection, many would come before Him and profess that they did great works, even miracles, in His name. But He, knowing their hearts and not just their outward show, will call them truly people whom He never knew, and they shall be cast into the fires of Hell. We can't judge people by what we see. We don't know their hearts. But God knows by what power these signs were done, whether it was from Him or the other side. I know how you feel about these things and "common sense". Crazy, isn't it? But when it's in the Lord, it's fun, and it's safe, and it's good. Just make sure it's in the Lord. And the best guides for this are 1. The Bible, the Word of God 2. The Holy Spirit 3. Your brethren, particularly your pastoral authority. Your brother in Christ, Peter Homeier -- Peter Homeier ______ Arpanet: homeier@aerospace / o \_/ UUCP: ..!ihnp4!trwrb!aero!homeier \___)__/ \ The Aerospace Corporation, M1-108 El Segundo, CA 90245 Disclaimer: Anything expressed above is my personal opinion, and not the position of the Aerospace Corporation.