Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site mtxinu.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!ncr-sd!hp-sdd!hplabs!qantel!lll-lcc!unisoft!mtxinu!ed From: ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) Newsgroups: net.women,net.singles Subject: Re: career vs. relationships Message-ID: <541@mtxinu.UUCP> Date: Fri, 7-Mar-86 12:51:04 EST Article-I.D.: mtxinu.541 Posted: Fri Mar 7 12:51:04 1986 Date-Received: Mon, 10-Mar-86 08:38:07 EST References: <125@ttidcc.UUCP> <215@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> <1951@hao.UUCP> <138@sfsup.UUCP> <1694@utah-gr.UUCP> <530@nrcvax.UUCP> Reply-To: ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) Organization: mt Xinu, Berkeley, CA Lines: 53 Xref: watmath net.women:9631 net.singles:10816 Donn Seely: >>This society teaches its men to be independent. ... >>Daughters are indulged. They are directed to take dance classes >>instead of advanced algebra, art appreciation instead of physics, home >>ec instead of shop. ... >>Does this sound any better when a man says it? Terry Grevstad: > >Frankly, no it does not. ... > >Let's face it. I'm average. I came from a basic middle-class home. >My mother never went to college. My father only made it through 2 >years of college before the expenses of raising a family ... > >At _no_ point in time was I instructed, intimidated or even had it >implied that I should be anything less than everything I possibly >could be. ... > >Most of all I was encouraged at all points to be able to support >myself and any family I might have ... > >I'm sorry, I simply do _not_ believe you when you say that women are >encouraged by society to be less than they can be. Seems to me, Terry, that you've been lucky. It's certainly not true that *all* girls respond to the general societal pressures that Donn describes, but my observations indicate that many of them do. I don't know your ethnic background, but some cultures have a much stronger tradition of self-sufficiency than others. I'm guessing that you're from one of those, and that the support your family and culture gave you was enough to reinforce the good pressures from society and downplay the bad - at least in the area of personal independence. Donn's right to point out that sons are encouraged to be independent and that daughters are indulged. A couple of years ago, I saw on PBS an account of an experiment with toddlers. When the a child was dressed as a boy, the subject adult let the child have a lot of freedom and explore the surroundings. When the *same* child was dressed as a girl, the *same* adult was protective and indulgent. (There were some other particulars that I no longer remember, but they all lined up the same way.) The implications of this kind of treatment are life-long and pervasive: men tend to explore and women tend to follow. (Please don't take this out of context!) -- Ed Gould mt Xinu, 2910 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710 USA {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed +1 415 644 0146 "A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality."