Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!henry From: henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) Newsgroups: net.columbia,net.space Subject: Re: Morton-Thiokol Engineering Claims Message-ID: <6494@utzoo.UUCP> Date: Wed, 12-Mar-86 15:55:33 EST Article-I.D.: utzoo.6494 Posted: Wed Mar 12 15:55:33 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 12-Mar-86 15:55:33 EST References: <1301@decwrl.DEC.COM> <758@ism780c.UUCP> <6442@utzoo.UUCP>, <6474@utzoo.UUCP>, <54@gilbbs.UUCP> Organization: U of Toronto Zoology Lines: 78 > ...In the first place, no one claimed they were "just following orders". "We told them it was dangerous, our management said it wasn't, so we shut up and went back to work." Sure sounds like "just following orders" to me. > Secondly, in the case of the Challenger flight, the dissenting engineers > had no authority or clear means of preventing the launch, regardless > of their degree of conviction about the dangers. Their protestations of innocence would ring a lot truer if they had *tried*, once they realized that they were being overruled for "political" reasons with lives at stake. Or at least resigned, to dissociate themselves from the possible results. > > The lack of that press conference cost the Challenger crew their lives. > > Oh really? What conclusive evidence can you present to us that would > support this seemingly idiotic comment? There is no gaurantee that such a > press conference would in any way have delayed that launch... But it might have. However slender the chances of getting the desired result with a press conference, *without* the press conference there was *no* chance. > Moreover, > based on past history, there does seem to be considerable evidence that the > engineers in question would have been immediately fired, and labelled as > "malcontents" or some such silly label. I'm sure the crew of Challenger would appreciate how painful this would be for the engineers. Too bad we can't ask them. > The engineers, *IF* they in fact made their fears and reasoning known to > their superiors, and attempted to stop the launch as claimed, did everything > within their power (short of sabotaging the launch support equipment)... The Morton-Thiokol engineers who will participate in redesign of the SRB seals should be told that one of them will be randomly selected to be a passenger on the first test flight. THEN we'd see what's within their powers; I suspect it would be considerably more than you suggest. > For the sake of argument, let us assume that calling such a press conference > *WOULD* have halted the launch (assuming that the engineers weren't arrested > before they could make their statements!)... Arrested? On what charge? Actually, getting themselves arrested (in public) might be the most effective thing to do under such conditions, if it could be done. Then there *would* be a press conference. > ... It's okay for the fucking bureaucrats to wantonly ingore facts in > favor of politics... Please point out to me where I said that. I didn't. The bureaucrats bear a large share of the blame; my point is that the engineers can't duck their share by claiming that they were "just following orders". > ...but it is criminal for the engineers not > to have taken steps that would have halted the launch, but permanently ruined > their careers. Amazing. You don't consider the Challenger crew's careers permanently ruined? Amazing. > Using this logic, it is obvious that since the engineers failed to sabotage > the launch support systems, and thereby stop the launch at *ANY COST*, they > are criminally liable, and ought to be incarcerated immediately! I'm not sure I would go as far as advocating sabotage, but *they* didn't need to go that far either! As for criminal liability, if it truly turns out that they did *nothing* after their management told them to shut up, a charge of "accessory before the fact to negligent homicide" would not be totally unjustified. Excessive, perhaps, but not ridiculous. Has even one of those engineers even resigned? I'm not asking about press conferences, just about whether they are willing to stay with a company which has innocent blood on its hands. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry