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Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer
From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: Reagan a pathological liar:re to Cramer
Message-ID: <645@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 24-Mar-86 13:32:56 EST
Article-I.D.: kontron.645
Posted: Mon Mar 24 13:32:56 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 29-Mar-86 09:14:01 EST
References: <1016@whuxl.UUCP> <588@kontron.UUCP> <982@cybvax0.UUCP> <611@kontron.UUCP> <988@cybvax0.UUCP>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Mt. View, CA
Lines: 64

> In article <611@kontron.UUCP> cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> > > Clayton, do you think you can outgrow the third grade taunts?
> > > You owe us all an apology for this sort of assinine tactic.
> > 
> > This is no "third grade taunt" -- I honestly believe that Sevener's 
> > quite obsessive hatred of Reagan to the point that he is UNABLE to
> > see that Reagan is like most other politicians smacks of someone who
> > needs to resolve his emotional problems.
> 
> "I honestly believe that Cramer's quite obsessive hatred of Sevener to the
> point that he is UNABLE to see that Sevener is like most other posters
> smacks of someone who needs to resolve his emotional problems."
> 
Sevener is not like most other posters -- most posters on this net have
varying degrees of dislike and disapproval of Reagan (I'm not sure there
are any who strongly approve of Reagan).  Most posters at least recognize
that Reagan's faults are not unusual.

> > Reagan is not someone I would trust to tell the truth -- he's told plenty
> > of lies.  But he's no different than a lot of other politicians in that
> > respect.  Where are Sevener's postings about them?  I maintain that
> > Sevener is obsessive about Reagan.
> 
> Reagan is leader of the most powerful nation in the world.  I'd say
> consideration of his character is quite important.  Diversion of the
> discussion to an ad-hominem attack on Sevener is not important, and
> merely a rhetorical ploy to discredit valid arguments.
> 
I agree consideration of his character is important -- and I'm not saying
that he's a wonderful person -- certainly not someone I would have picked
for the job.  But Sevener's obssession about Reagan to the exclusion of
other politicians is utterly absurd.

Also, my original response to Sevener's original posting (long ago) pointed
out that some of Reagan's "lies" were in fact not lies -- garbled and
confused, but not lies.  (Trees & pollution, for example.)

> > > All you've done here is claimed that both pathological liars and
> > > normal people share these characteristics.  You haven't ruled out that
> > > Reagan is a pathological liar; indeed you haven't differentiated between
> > > pathological liars and normal people in any way.  By this same sort of
> > > argument you'd probably refuse to recognize any diagnosis of mental disease
> > > which you didn't like.
> > 
> > Sevener's original posting indicated that Reagan denying an embarrassing
> > statement marked Reagan as a pathological liar.  My response was to make
> > it clear that this is a common action -- to claim that Reagan's actions
> > in that particular case makes Reagan a pathological liar is not true.
> 
> The great frequency and disregard for being exposed of Reagan's lies might
> be a good criterion of pathology.  While Tim didn't raise this point
> explicitly, it is implicit in psychology that there is a continuous
> grade between normal and pathological.  Your argument is much like this
> hypothetical defense of the sanity of David Berkowitz (the Son of Sam killer):
> "Heck, lots of people claim to hear voices; I can name any number of
> evangelists who claim to talk to god."
> -- 
> 
> Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

"[D]isregard for being exposed" is characteristic of much of the population
of this country, and I presume, any other.  I think you are going to need
a lot of straitjackets -- and some other system besides democracy for 
running this place.