Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!ucbvax!brahms!gsmith From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Reagan a pathological liar:re to Cramer Message-ID: <12676@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: Wed, 26-Mar-86 03:03:08 EST Article-I.D.: ucbvax.12676 Posted: Wed Mar 26 03:03:08 1986 Date-Received: Sat, 29-Mar-86 09:21:08 EST References: <1016@whuxl.UUCP> <588@kontron.UUCP> <982@cybvax0.UUCP> Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Reply-To: gsmith@brahms.UUCP (Gene Ward Smith) Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 102 In article <646@kontron.UUCP> cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes: >> >> >I think Reagan is the best President I can remember. (I would say he is >> >> >doing a mediocre to fair job.) >The "basic civil rights legislation" you describe, while laws that I can >approve of, led to affirmative action, of which I strongly disapprove. So what? Do you want Jim Crow back? This point isn't very pointed. >Johnson's deficit spending to fight the Vietnam War had a lot to do with >the economic problems of the 1970s. True. Bonzo doesn't have the excuse of a war. >> And Reagan's huge deficits will be with us when Reagan, Ford and Carter are >> all dead. And Reagan lost Marines in Lebanon, Carter brought people home from >> Iran. And Reagan is a lier, even if not a pathological one. He is the worst > >"Reagan's huge deficits" are jointly his responsibility and Congress'. The >President can't force Congress to appropriate money -- they have to vote to >spend it. Just as the current economic recovery isn't all Reagan's doing, >the deficits aren't either. His share of responsibility is by far the greatest. Reagan used every ounce of his formidable persuasive power to cut taxes. He went over the heads of Congress, making a direct appeal to the populace which put Congress in an untenable position. He has arm-twisted successfully for increased defense spending -- his "I am a budget cutter, the Democrats are the only big spenders" line of BS is the stuff people have been calling "lies". Without Reagan, the doubling of the deficit WOULD NOT have happened. "Reagan did it" is an over-simplification, but a useful one. It is (I am being arbitrary here, obviously) 90% true. And he has NO excuse. No WW II. No great depression. >Sorry, Carter didn't bring the hostages home from Iran. The Iranian Govern- >ment made *a point* of releasing them the day that Reagan took office to >show their contempt and hatred for Carter. Carter worked out the deal. He deserves the credit -- not Bonzo, who took office that same day as you yourself pointed out. This is silly. That the Ayatollah didn't like Carter counts in Carter's favor as far as I am concerned. >> lier by far (worse than Johnson or Nixon even) since he is so good at it. He >> is also a warmonger. Or haven't you heard his threat to invade Nicaragua? I >Ever hear about Johnson's start in politics throwing ballot boxes into a >river in Texas? I'm not arguing that Reagan's foreign policies necessarily >make sense -- just that they don't look so ridiculous compared to Johnson. >(And compared to John Kennedy, Reagan isn't a warmonger at all. Remember >the Cuban Missile Crisis?) Of course I do. JFK had a problem, and he successfully dealt with it -- not all saber-rattling, but partly behind the scenes negotiation. Not all to his discredit as far as I can see. As far as Johnson is concerned, I wish someone had thrown him into a river in Texas. I remember reading campaign literature in 1964 from the Goldwater people, saying that Johnson was a crook who stole votes. This wasn't good, as I was already convinced that Goldwater was a right-wing looney tune who would get us into war in Southeast Asia. Well, hindsight is 100%. Fortunately, I wasn't old enough to vote in 1964. But LBJ at least did some positive things, which various people have been pointing out. What is Bonzo's record of accomplishment? >> could go on, but one last point: Reagan is terminally stupid. Even things he >> supports (the military) are likely to end up weaker in the long run because >> of his policies. Or what would you predict as the likely consequence of Gram- >> Rudman-Hollings together with fanatical support (even if other programs must >> suffer) of SDI? I could go on, but why bother? >> >I'm not arguing FOR Reagan's policies -- I'm arguing that as Presidents >go, we've had plenty as bad or even worse. You've backed down a little, I see. Will you be content with saying that Bonzo is about as awful as Johnson and Nixon? >> Also, Nixon was not and is not a leftist. I am not likely to agree with >> your political opinions. You might at least leave me with the option of >> thinking that your opinions could be the result of intelligence or insight. >> Silly, stupid statements won't help do that. >> >"Nixon was not and is not a leftist." You are talking about the President >that gave us: [LIST OF ALLEGEDLY "LEFTIST" STUFF] >My original comment on this subject was because someone asserted I was >having neurological problems when I said Reagan was the best President >I could remember. I don't expect everyone to agree with my assessment -- >I am a little irritated that people have elevated the several recent turkeys >who occupied the Oval Office to a position that makes Reagan look so much >worse. OK. My silliness in saying you needed to see a doctor cancels out yours in saying Nixon is a leftist. He isn't and you don't. And Reagan is a very annoying kind of turkey to some people, like me, who remember him selling Twenty Mule-Team Borax and get driven nuts when simplistic, stupid sell-jobs of EXACTLY the same kind are used to try to convince me to buy his policies. I take it as a personal insult to my intelligence, I guess. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 Imagine what the world would be like if football was a worthy ritual performed in stadiums but mathematics was a misunderstood activity ignored by almost all.