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From: leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper)
Newsgroups: net.startrek
Subject: Re: Followup to 'His was the most human
Message-ID: <1746@mtgzz.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 26-Mar-86 06:22:31 EST
Article-I.D.: mtgzz.1746
Posted: Wed Mar 26 06:22:31 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 28-Mar-86 05:29:28 EST
References: <1661@mtgzz.UUCP> 24900128@uiucdcs <4571MIQ@PSUVMA> 1742@mtgzz.UUCP <4624MIQ@PSUVMA>
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Middletown NJ
Lines: 74


 >>Hardly.  Why do you keep insisting that logic and
 >>randomness are completely incompatible?
 >
 >A long time ago in a posting far, far away, you said that
 >"To be logical to take an illogical action is a
 >contradiction in terms."  Ever since then, I've been trying
 >to show that it is NOT a contradiction, and that your own
 >position on "pseudo-randomness" is proof of this.  
 
And your argument has always been that logic and random choices are
incompatible.  It seems to me you have just been making this false
statement over and over.  I was going to give you the example of
evens-odds as an example of a game in which the logical thing to do is
to make random choices.  Another poster beat me to it by giving the
same example with pennies.
 
 >Consider
 >the following example:  I have to deliver a package to
 >someone, and it has to be there by a certain time.  I have a
 >choice of two roads to take, road A or road B.  I know that
 >one of them is very crowded and slow at this time of day
 >(and would prevent me from arriving on time), but I can't
 >remember which one it is.  No one else around knows either.
 >Finally, with no other alternative, I flip a coin.  Using
 >the result of the coin flip, I decide on road A.
 >
 >Question:  Was my decision to take road A a logical decision?  
 >Answer: NO!!  I had no logical reason of any kind to pick road 
 >A over road B.  
 >Question:  Was my decision to choose between the two roads
 >with a coin flip a logical  decision?  
 >Answer:    YES!!  With no facts available, the    
 >only logical alternative was to abandon logic and resort to
 >randomness.

The logical thing to do is use all the data at your disposal to make
the best decision between two alternatives.  If no data gives you any
information as to which is better use a choice method and follow that
choice.  Your second question you have answered correctly except that
it is not abandoning logic.  It is choosing the most logical course of
action: finding a choice algorithm and abiding by that choice.  You are
absolutely wrong on your first answer though.  The logical reason you
had for choosing A is that you had picked a choice algorithm (logically
as you admit) and it told you to take road A.  You are merely complying
with the choice algorithm that you have logically chosen.

 >
 >Hopefully this will clear up my position once and for all.
 >Randomness CAN become a logical alternative, but it is NOT
 >itself logical.  
 
If we are going to word this precisely, randomness is a statistical
condition that is neither logical nor illogical.  Those adjectives don't
apply to the word "randomness" itself.  The decision that an optimal
choice algorithm available to you includes a randomizing element can be
a logical decision as you say above.  The decision to follow the
dictates of an optimal choice algorithm is ALWAYS logical.  (Please
note, incidently, we say AN optimal choice algorithm, not THE optimal
choice algorithm.  Another choice algorithm that gives you another
answer can also be optimal.  But it better give you an answer that it
just as good based on the data you have.)

Oh, and it should be noted for others getting involved in this
discussion that I never claimed that Kirk or McCoy could not beat
Spock in a generalized game of chess.  The original question dealt with
Spock not being able to find a way out of check and another player
finding one.  Finding a way out of check is a much simpler problem than
simply winning and a logical mind like Spock's should find a way out if
anyone could.


				Mark Leeper
				...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper