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From: toddv@copper.UUCP (Todd Vierheller)
Newsgroups: net.startrek
Subject: Chess, Kirk and Spock
Message-ID: <240@copper.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 27-Mar-86 18:13:04 EST
Article-I.D.: copper.240
Posted: Thu Mar 27 18:13:04 1986
Date-Received: Mon, 31-Mar-86 08:28:05 EST
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR
Lines: 63
Keywords: Irrational? Moves

[EAT ME]

  +>pull some wacko stunt like that and seriously goof up my whole game.
  +>He had no qualms about giving me the superior pieces in a trade.  And he
  +>had no consistency either.  A blatantly irrational move every now and then
  +>can really screw up a chess game.
  +
  +A blatantly irrational move should not screw up a chess game.  It should
  +merely shorten it.

Not true.  (Have you ever played chess?)  If Player A builds little scenarios
in his head which expect (require) Player B to do the logical thing, he (A) is
in a world of hurt if Player B does something weird.  The move definitely hurts
Player B, but it hurts Player A more because he has committed himself to a (now)
faulty plan.  (With Bobby Fisher against me, yes it would shorten the game.
With me against a duplicate of myself, it would merely be confusing.  After all,
*I* certainly know how I expect a duplicate of myself to play.)

  +>I can understand how Kirk could beat Spock with such tactics.  Only if the
  +>"rational" chess player is substantially better than his "irrational"
  +>opponent, could he easily overcome such play.  Maybe Spock only lost once in
  +>a while to these tactics.
  +
  +Chess has rules.  Unless Kirk can change the rules, he should NEVER be able
  +to beat Spock, given what we "know" about the two characters.  You can't
  +bluff in Chess.  Illogical moves are weak moves.  Spock would crush Kirk.
  +Kirk might beat Spock in Poker, but I wouldn't even bet on that. (Think of
  +the POKER face that Spock could give you !!)  However,
  +in an unknown "game" or Command situation, give me Kirk EVERY TIME.

You miss the point.  The unexpected irrational move isn't a bluff.
It's a strategic move by the "irrational" player who realizes that "Hmmm...
Spock probably has a pretty good plan going for him about now.  I bet he
didn't dream in a million years I'd give up my queen to his bishop two moves
from now." 
(Of course, this requires Kirk to make a plan based on his (irrational to
Spock) behavior.)
  +
  +>The question actually comes down to whether or not Spock was willing or able
  +>to keep every game tree in his head during each move of the game.

NOTE THAT PREVIOUS SENTENCE.
	
  +>I think to do so would have been impossible even for Spock.  Spock probably
  +>used a subset based on the logical move for Kirk to make.  And Kirk could
  +> therefore throw him a surprise every now and then.
  +
  +The subset is based on move strength, not on "rationality index".
  +
 
Move strength is certainly isn't based on irrationality.  One expects the
opposing player to do what is best in the short term as well as the long term.
(Ie. He won't trade both his bishops to take my rook.)

  +						+Pete Williamson
  +
  +

Todd Vierheller

Food for thought:  Spock knows how the computer plays.  What if the darn thing
made a "foolish" move without warning late in one of Spock's scenarios?  Spock
might still win, but it would sure goof up his play.