Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!bellcore!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!ncr-sd!hp-sdd!hplabs!qantel!lll-lcc!lll-crg!seismo!gatech!akgua!akguc!mtunh!mtung!mtunf!mtx5c!mtx5d!mtx5a!mat From: mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) Newsgroups: net.singles,net.women Subject: Re: Male Feminism (was: Why male dominance?) Message-ID: <1251@mtx5a.UUCP> Date: Thu, 20-Mar-86 03:36:41 EST Article-I.D.: mtx5a.1251 Posted: Thu Mar 20 03:36:41 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 26-Mar-86 02:29:25 EST References: <1270@decwrl.DEC.COM> <439@ccivax.UUCP> <12@umcp-cs.UUCP> <9670@ucla-cs.ARPA> <459@ccivax.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Middletown, NJ 07748-4801. Lines: 107 Xref: watmath net.singles:11148 net.women:9852 > aggression. Simply put, for a man to feel he has won, he must feel that > the other person has lost. For young boys and men, this is acted out > in the form of fighting, competitive sports, and "contests" of various > types. Later, if and when maturity occurrs, the "contests" become more > intellectual, insult matches, debates, and "intellectual clubbing matches" > of various types. For the male, this is not really optional. For a male > to not participate, results in low social status. Frequently, males who > do not compete are given "lables" normally associated with homosexuality. > For this article (and follow-ups) I'll call this agressive win/lose > trait "macho". We've got a few of these a**holes around here. All are despised to a greater or lesser degree. > Women, although they may choose to "compete", have the option of developing > a win/win approach. Simply put, a woman can feel she has "won" if > she gains benefit from the encounter even though the "opponant", if any, > may have also gained. Personally, I consider this "feminine" trait to > be superior in a society which must cooperate to survive. > For this article, I'll call this trait "feminine". > > Think about it, would you really rather have an arms treaty negotiation > between two "masculine" types, each insisting on a clear competitive > advantage (and risk being on the "loosing" side), or two "feminine" > types, each insisting that they be safer than they are now? I often > wonder if we might not be better off having the "first ladies" cut the > treaty (providing neither is actually a "macho woman" in disguise). Note, however, that most of those who work the win/lose game sucessfully know where to stop. Those who don't usually don't get very far in an organization. Douglas Hofstadter, a few years ago, ran a column in Scientific American in which he reported on programs that were designed to play a Co-operate/Defect type of game. The most successful programs were those that mimiced their opponents, being just as nice -- or as nasty -- as the opponents were. > A few "male feminist" role models: > Mr Spock on Star Trek - in contrast to "shoot 'em up" Kirk, a pioneer! > Even when he fights, the emotional restraint of the > character is admirable. And not necessarily a good role model for humans. If you supress/ignore your emotions, you will end up being ruled by them, in one way or another. > Tom Baker's Doctor Who - "ask questions first", seldom uses a gun, seldom > fights, frequently a "win/win" resolution of the problem. Hmm. Yes. Very interesting. > By the way, are there other such role models available? My wife and I > are both a little concerned when my three year old son comes up to > daddy and says "I'm gonna break your face". He gets this stuff from > television, but it is hard to find non-violent, non-insulting, > "feminine" male role models. I've got a better idea. Cut out the TV. Get him into books now, before it's too late. Start with The Wind In The Willows, and the classic Dr. Suess books. Make the TV hour a twice-a-week thing, make it a family affair, and try to avoid the trash. And recognize that he is just playing. Play it out with him, and try to get him interested in other things. > As an example, most of our evaluation engineering staff are > women. For some reason, when a male engineer is told by another > male engineer that his program doesn't work right, the response is > to "compete" by trying to prove that the test was done wrong. The > women have come up with approaches that keep the men off the defensive. > For example: "I'm not sure what is happening, but I can't get xyz > function to work right, could you give me some help?" I use this sort of thing with men and women -- no sex involved. Don't look to the handbooks of seduction. Look to ``How To Win Friends and Influence People'' by Dale Carnagie. Men like Lincoln and Franklin and both Roosevelts and Andrew Carnagie and ... have done this. Just don't say ``could you give me some help?'' as though you WANTED to be patronized. Say ``could you show me what I'm doing wrong?''. > The male programmer comes to the "rescue", simply to discover that his > pride and joy (program) is broken. He further "rescues" the evaluator > by having the fix done before the ink is dry on the trouble report. > > The evaluator knows full well that the space cadet programmer has left > a gaping bug in the code that has to be fixed, but by not taking the > "macho" role, both she and the programmer have saved time, effort, and > emnity. Men have more difficulty taking this feminine role. In > reality, the "feminine" is actually in control of the situation. Men > are also less likely to "rescue" other men. If this capability is the exclusive province of women, we are ALL in trouble. > We also have a few "feminine" men who have actually gained more by > using win/win tactics than those who take the "macho" aproach. And > despite wives, children and clear heterosexual preferences, the "Gay > Jokes" and "hints" can be heard in the woodwork. What the hell kind of place do you work in? The Dodge City municiple iron works? The best way to deal with people like that is to show them ONCE that you can be a worse SOB than they want to deal with. Then go about getting your work done. -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) mtx5b!mat (Please mail to mtx5b!mat, NOT mtx5a! mat, or to mtx5a!mtx5b!mat) ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.