Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!tektronix!reed!omen!caf From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Newsgroups: net.audio,net.rumor Subject: Re: CD vs vinyl (long, sorry) Message-ID: <331@omen.UUCP> Date: Sun, 4-May-86 15:05:42 EDT Article-I.D.: omen.331 Posted: Sun May 4 15:05:42 1986 Date-Received: Wed, 7-May-86 06:14:18 EDT References: <2679@pixar.pixar> <297@uthub.UUCP> <2743@pixar.pixar> Reply-To: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Organization: Omen Technology, Portland Lines: 71 Xref: watmath net.audio:8373 net.rumor:2183 In article <2743@pixar.pixar> good@pixar.UUCP (Craig Good: U.S. Olympic Balkan Dirt Diving Team) writes: >"Excessive slew rates"? Says who? Anyway, if your amp falls apart in the >20 KHz octave it is worse than cheap, it is a crock. I'll bet a nickel >that the $1.39 worth of headphone amp in a Sony Walkman does better than you >think most consumer gear does. > Show me an LP with a steady 20 kHz sine wave recorded at 0db (100 per cent modulation) at both the outer grooves and the inner grooves after a few plays and I'll be amazed. CD's are quite capable of reproducing 20 kHz at 100 per cent modulation, and the resulting scope trace looks like the ouytput of the signal generator, not a shortwave broadcast. > >Specs, schmecs. I know compression when I hear it. One of the real weaknesses >of all digital audio schemes of which I know is that they have exactly 0 db >of headroom. If your music goes, for even a fraction of a second, a mere .5 >db above that level you get horrible distortions. Analog systems can, and often >do, have 12 to 20 db of dynamic headroom. The distortions increases gradually, >and is generally even-order (as opposed to the odd-order you get when digital >clips). The distortion is also spectrally related to the music making it even >less noticable and objectionable. Analog systems also allow useful listening >a good 15 db below the noise "floor". A properly dithered digital system only >gets you 2 or 3 db down there. > Please show me an LP with any 20 kHz material anywhere near 0db, let alone +12 or +20 db, ticks and pops excluded. > >(A note on hiss at the symphony, and skipping needles: You can't go hear a live performance without >hiss. It's called room rumble, and there is lots of it everywhere you go. Hiss >is a normal, natural part of life, and when it is kept to low levels it is easy >to ignore. Room rumble is easy to ignore because it comes from a different direction and has a spectral content different from most music. Hiss, on the other hand, appears to emanate from the approximate same location as the orchestra; hence the usual comments about a "curtain of hiss" when comparing well recorded CD's to noisier sources. > >An absolutely perfectly mastered CD could give you 96 db of dynamic range, but >since you absolutely cannot afford clipping -- and since the dynamic range of >a typical orchestra performance can give you +15db excursions without even >breathing hard -- you are going to lower the average level by 15 db. You are >now spending most of your time around the 81 db S/N area (still quite good). > Clipping of extremely short transients is vitually inaudible, and thus would be permissible on a digital recording. > >If you allow vinyl a modest 65 db, with a modest +12 db headroom and an equally > Show me an LP with a 82 db dynamic range at 20 kHz or even at 5 kHz before claiming it! > >modest -9 db useable information below the "floor", > I see no reason why the noise on an LP is any less noisy than that generated by dither. If you add 9 db of "useable information below the noise floor" to LP's, then add it to dithered CD's as well! > >wonderful things they can do. Be happy. Don't listen to master tapes on a >$100,000 stereo. > If I had a $100,000 stereo, and assuming that it sounded an order of magnitude better than mine, I'd listen to master tapes, CD's, LP's, Star Trek, or whatever. If the $100,000 stereo were only slightly better than mine, it might be better to get a better listening room for the one I already have, saving a few grand for upgrading the speakers. Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf CIS:70715,131 Author of Professional-YAM communications Tools for PCDOS and Unix Omen Technology Inc 17505-V NW Sauvie Island Road Portland OR 97231 Voice: 503-621-3406 TeleGodzilla: 621-3746 300/1200 L.sys entry for omen: omen Any ACU 1200 1-503-621-3746 se:--se: link ord: Giznoid in:--in: uucp omen!/usr/spool/uucppublic/FILES lists all uucp-able files, updated hourly