Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!prls!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer
From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.followup,net.politics
Subject: Re: Does CND exist because of totalitarianism?
Message-ID: <810@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 23-May-86 13:38:17 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.810
Posted: Fri May 23 13:38:17 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 25-May-86 15:37:50 EDT
References: <157@unido.UUCP> <720@ark.UUCP> <122@paisley.ac.uk>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Mt. View, CA
Lines: 44
Xref: linus net.followup:5408 net.politics:15496

> In article <782@kontron.UUCP> cramer@kontron.UUCP writes:
> >The idea that declaring yourself a "nuclear free zone" is going to make
> >even ONE bit of difference whether war is fought on your soil is so 
> >incredibly naive as to be unbelievable.  Since otherwise intelligent
> >people claim to believe this nonsense, I am forced to conclude that 
> >they do so because they are attempting to create a popular support for
> >pacifism.  Totalitarians have always benefitted from pacifism -- that's
> >why groups like CND exist.
> 
> What's wrong with popular support for pacifism? The more people who object
> to violence, the better. We'd all live in a better world if there were
> more pacifists. 
> 

If all the pacifists are on one side, the other side will quickly take
away your freedom, and perhaps your lives.

> Sorry, I don't see the connection between CND and totalitarianism. CND
> exists because some nations think it's a good idea to stockpile weapons
> that can obliterate the planet we all live on and then threaten each other
> with these weapons. Where does totalitarianism come into it? [I'm only a
> stupid pacifist, so what do I know? :-)]
> 

You really are stupid, then.  Take a look at the 1930s in Europe.  The
pacifist sentiments widely held in France and Britain made it easy for
Hitler to take over Austria & Czechoslovakia.  No one wanted to start a
war -- and when it finally came, Germany had a huge advantage.  Didn't
you learn any history?  I know German schools don't teach history after
the Weimar Republic -- but then, they have something be embarrassed by.
What's your excuse?

> It's humanity that will benefit from the CND movement - Raygun and Gorbachov
> would not even be trying to have talks about talks about arms reductions
> if it wasn't for the massive public opinion against them, particularly in
> Western Europe.
> 
> 		Jim

Arms limitations talks have been going on for 20 years -- well before there
was any popular opposition to nuclear weapons.  (You really DO need to 
understand the past to understand the present, Jim.)

Clayton E. Cramer