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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.followup,net.politics
Subject: Re: Air raid on Libya
Message-ID: <811@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 23-May-86 13:50:52 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.811
Posted: Fri May 23 13:50:52 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 25-May-86 15:38:25 EDT
References: <157@unido.UUCP> <720@ark.UUCP> <122@paisley.ac.uk>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Mt. View, CA
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Xref: linus net.followup:5409 net.politics:15497

> >> >> targets within Nicuragua ( which, by the way, has a
> >> >> democratically elected government ). How much longer
> >> >
> >> >Time to read.  The elections were held in a "stacked deck"
> >> >situtation, much like Mussolini allowed elections be held,
> >> >and opposition members to be seated in the Italian Parliament
> >> >after he took over.
> >> 
> >> This is nonsense. The elections in Nicaragua were free and fair, though
> >> there may have been isolated incidents to contradict the overall picture.
> >> The elections were open to all parties and the electorate had a secret ballot.
> >
> >Freedom of the press was turned on just before the election, and off just
> >after the election.  By their own admission, political use of food ration
> >cards has been going on for a long while in Nicaragua.  Sounds like a 
> >great way to encourage political opponents.
> >
> I haven't heard that before, do this mean our press is ineffective
> 

Probably.  It seems from some of the postings that British press are
giving an EXTREMELY incomplete description of what's going on in Nicaragua.

> >> Your statement about the peace movement in the 30's is specious. The
> >> "appeasers" of Hitler didn't bring about the war. War was inevitable when
> >> he came to power. The allies of WW1 didn't care about Germany until it was
> >> too late and the appeal of the myth of Nordic supremacy coupled to a convenient
> >> scapegoat - the Jews - was too great for the downtrodden and desparate Germany
> >> of the 20's and 30's. At least the US had the gumption not to make the same
> >> mistake after WW2 when they instituted the Marshall Plan.
> >> 
> >
> >Hitler would have fallen if anyone had stood up to him in 1936 when he
> >reoccupied the Ruhr.
> >
> Spectulation nobody knows what would have happen  !!!!

Actually, this claim was made by a member of the German General Staff 
after the war.  He claimed that Germany was not prepared for war in 1936,
and the decision to remilitarize the Ruhr was opposed by the General
Staff for this very reason.

> >Doesn't anyone in Europe ever READ?
> >
> >Clayton E. Cramer
> 
> When you say does "Doesn't anyone in Europe ever READ" do you mean
> read as in reading your postings or as in read history ?
> 
> In either case the answer is yes I do read .
> 

"Read history" is what I meant.  Jim's postings in particular indicate
utter ignorance of the 1930s.  (Something I find quite common among
college-educated Europeans -- much more common than among average
Americans here.  Perhaps the 1930s are too painful of a time, especially
if you are a pacifist.)

> One last point, if you are a typical american, I think it explains
> the problem in communications we appear to be having between our
> two peoples at the moment
> 
> 
> 
>  Are Americans paranoid ?
> 			Andrew Fleming

Paranoid?  Americans have been targeted by various terrorist groups
for the last few years for actions taken by our government (which we
do not control, except in a very narrow sense).  Groups sympathetic
to the Sandinistas set off bombs in public buildings in Washington, D.C.
Our supposed allies DO NOTHING about terrorism being committed in 
European cities that kill vast numbers of their citizens, and then
get angry at us for retaliating against the source of that terrorism.
There are huge fleets of Soviet ICBMs aimed at the United States, and
Europe (who we are pledged to protect from the Soviet Union) claims
there's no danger from the Soviets, but they are still worried about
a war between the Soviet Union and the USA.  (And if they aren't 
worried about a war between us, why the concern about the nuclear
weapons in Europe.)

Paranoid?  Our fears sound pretty rational to me.

Clayton E. Cramer