Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!prls!pyramid!voder!kontron!cramer
From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.followup
Subject: Re: Re: Response to <538@imsvax.UUCP> <8
Message-ID: <814@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 23-May-86 14:11:09 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.814
Posted: Fri May 23 14:11:09 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 25-May-86 15:39:43 EDT
References: <114@radha.UUCP> <8300007@unido.UUCP>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Mt. View, CA
Lines: 69

> sanand@radha /  3:40 am  Apr 30, 1986:
> 
> >I can't let this go. Why the *HELL* do you not "fear" the Libyan terrorists
> >(et al) as much as you fear the "consequences" of self defense. It's
> >incredible to see (on TV) the (European) outrage against U.S. actions.
> >Where is the (visible) outrage when bombs are exploded in crowds of INNOCENT
> >people ?
> 
> "Consequences" may be: a local war, a world war III... That are the things I

The Soviets are going to start a war over Libya?  Not likely.  Syria might
be another matter -- but Syria has a mutual defense pact with the Soviet
Union -- Libya does not.

> fear. We had very much problems here in Germany with terrorist between 1970 and
> 1980 (the Baader-Meinhof-Gang (RAF), trained in Syrian and Lybia camps of the
> PLO). Today: None. Why:
> 1. We have very strong laws regarding the possession of guns and other arms.
> Just today I read in a German newspaper some figures about people killed by
> guns in some countries of the world (1985 ?? I don't know any more):
> 
> Japan  : 77
> Sweden : <10
> Germany: <100
> ....
> USA    : <12000 (in words twelve-thousand)
> 

1. Terrorists do not obey gun control laws -- and international terrorists
seldom get their guns from within the country.  The gun control laws are 
COMPLETELY irrelevant to the terrorism issue.

2. USA is also a much larger country in total population, so your numbers
need to be scaled to the population.

3. You will also find that the murder rate here is higher with knives,
blunt instruments, and strangulation than Japan, Sweden, or Germany.  The
problem is not the presence of guns -- the problem is that the average
age of our population is MUCH lower than any country in Europe.  Murder
is overwhelmingly a crime of young people everywhere.  We just have a lot
more of them.  (Mexico has gun control laws on a par with Germany, even
stricter in some ways, yet they have a higher murder rate than the USA.
They also have a much younger population.)

4. Finally, what's the murder rate in Switzerland?  Lower than in Germany,
and every adult male citizen has access to an automatic rifle.)  Ditto,
Israel -- heavily armed population, and low murder rates.

> And it's the same attitude of the Wild West, Dirty Harry, Rambo and the right
> to possess a gun in God's own country, which will drive you into problems in
> the next few years. Behind this Gaddafi and his terrorists will disappear. More
> Gaddafi must only wait long enough and he need not kill any US citizen, because
> they have killed themselves.
> 

Crime rates have been declining -- the population has been getting older.

> You and we should do something, and you and we have done something, only the
> ways we go and went were different. The next few years will show which
> way will be better. If your way goes right and terrorism will stop after your
> attack of Tripolis, all right; but if your way fails and terrorism will even
> enhance in the next time please don't blame us.
> 
> uh@unido

No one claims that terrorism will go away -- the goal is to make it
expensive for countries that support terrorism.

Clayton E. Cramer