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From: arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL)
Newsgroups: net.misc
Subject: Re: Urinalysis...Lie Detectors...all th
Message-ID: <9858@ucsfcgl.ucsfcgl.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 21-May-86 22:05:22 EDT
Article-I.D.: ucsfcgl.9858
Posted: Wed May 21 22:05:22 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 24-May-86 21:32:08 EDT
References: <402@bu-cs.UUCP> <108@gumby.UUCP> <1239@dual.UUCP>
Reply-To: arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL)
Organization: Computer Graphics Laboratory, UCSF
Lines: 36

In article <168@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> mmar@sphinx.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) writes:
>Tampering with samples is something that the people who like to give these
>tests are well aware of.  That's why the proposals or contracts calling for
>drug testing like to specify *supervised* urine samples.  You don't bring
>it in from home, you don't even step into a cubbyhole and take your time to
>produce the sample in privacy.  No, you step into a cubbyhole with a technician
>who watches carefully to make sure you aren't dropping anything in it or
>substituting anything.  
>     So besides the issues of (1) inherent invasion of privacy in the basic
>idea; and (2) dubious accuracy of the tests; we should add (3) additional
>invasion of privacy involved in collecting the sample.  When's the last
>time you tried to urinate into a beaker under supervision?  
>
>            -- Mitch Marks @ UChicago 

... not to mention that some people's muscles lock up and prevent them
from urinating when under pressure.  For some people this is only
occasional, but for others it is a serious psychological problem.  So
what do you do when someone tries to give a sample, can not, and claims
they have such a block?  Do you really refuse to hire someone because
they cannot urinate in stressful situations?

Oh, I almost forgot.  What about slight of hand?  Magicians pretty
routinely pull tricks with liquids.  In order to guarantee that a
stream of yellow liquid is coming from the person, not from some tube
up their sleve, you would have to insist that clothes around the hands
in use and the genitalia be completely removed (and the skin would have
to be inspected in case it was fake), and the urination would have to
be visible clearly from the person watching.  For males this isn't too
hard, but how do you propose to watch a female urinating that closely?
Have glass toilets and look up through them from below?

You guys try this for a while.  See how much fun it is.  Then report
back.

		Ken Arnold