Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site mit-eddie.MIT.EDU Path: utzoo!decvax!bellcore!ulysses!allegra!mit-eddie!gds From: gds@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Greg Skinner) Newsgroups: mod.music Subject: Love-Hounds Digest Message-ID: <2078@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU> Date: Fri, 23-May-86 04:52:49 EDT Article-I.D.: mit-eddi.2078 Posted: Fri May 23 04:52:49 1986 Date-Received: Sat, 24-May-86 06:13:16 EDT Organization: MIT Lusers and Hosers Inc., Cambridge, Ma. Lines: 681 Approved: gds@eddie.mit.edu Love-Hounds Digest Friday, May 23, 1986, 04:55 EDT Topics: Dayglo Abortions Sarcastic Orgasm. . . Re: Re: Anglo/Americo/Notes from all over End of French KT interview Hi-NRG PG on KT machorock vs discowimp, (Alfke babbles) Synths aren't evil ... self-explanatory (more alfkebabblespeak) answers those Brian Eno videos Roxy Romance [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 12:17:38 EDT From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Subject: Dayglo Abortions You mean they send you albums and you don't EVEN PLAY THEM????? BEcause of the cover????? Whatdafug??? Give it to me - I'll get it mentioned somewheres. . .actually I hear LOTS of good things about that band,,, this really makes me puke when I hear of people getting free records and not even playing it. That's bad, Sue ... I should forward that to all the record companies and especially the Dayglo Abortions. You should be ashamed, not proud. [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 12:35:20 EDT From: Swingset Disaster Subject: Sarcastic Orgasm. . . Here's a review I sent over to a local zine on sarcastic orgasm THE UNDECIDED/ SARCASTIC ORGASM /PUNCHLINE @ The Eutaw Clubhouse on May 10, 1986. Two bands from D.C. played last Saturday. Never heard of any of these two from the regular D.C. grapevine and babblezines. SARCASTIC ORGASM are worth seeing - their attitude reminds me of A.O.D. but their music is orginal. They approach hardcore from the jazz/improv end but unlike a lot of others are pretty successful. The singer does a great drunk and ate a dog bisquit I gave him. Synth player switches from keyboards to trumpet to violin feedback to metal guitar like you and me change underwear. Some little leather clad kid exclaimed after one number, "You guys blew me away and you aren't metal!" 6 to 8 dancers doing the slamorgy thing - you know where the couples roll around in the pit. One particulary cute young thing in a black flag shirt catches my eye. Ah, youth. Next band, PUNCHLINE does the early C.o.C. imitation quite well. Seem to be emerging from cover band status and include about three going thru Van Halen (Atomic Punk sounding better than the original) and others. They threatened to do Led Zep but instead did a H.R. cut up (who they say is in jail ... so is Joseph I - so there must be some good jamming going on there) ... their originals give them five up and coming stars from me. I want to hear them again. Fast as shit, the guitar is metal, the singer is punk, the rhythm is speed - the result is speedmetal. See them, they're the best around the area in this genre. Oh yeah, the dancing? on and off - some older fellow with a pink mohawk was putting the young kids to shame. Haven't seen him around so I assume he was one of the band member's parents? First band, THE UNDECIDED were ending as I showed up. It sounded like they were doing a cover of "Salad Days" ... pretty good. DAG NASTY never showed - the word is they broke up! That's three Dischord bands in this year! Who's next? SCREAM? - hofmann [][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Re: Re: Anglo/Americo/Notes from all over Date: Thu, 15 May 86 10:33:44 -0800 From: J. Peter Alfke Swingset Disaster sez: >>From: Bob Krajewski >>Subject: Anglo|Amero/philia|phoiba >>Boy, you guys really touched a sensitive nerve there. A few observations: >>. Look at things from a musical history point of view. It is clear that >>the most vigorous forms of music on the worldwide scene all heavily borrow >>from American sources. In other words: no blues, no America, no nothing. >Bob said everything I was trying to say without using the esoteric art of >flaming. The people here who say they're enamored with the "art" of it >all are really just amused by the cleverness of all the hidden meanings >they've found in stuff. For the most part, the English music is fey, >surface music. >>. Since Americans in general are so ignorant of their musical heritage, many >True, not all of us but yes, in general and yes, the Brits do tend to take >it and mangle it (MaClaren being the prime abuser). There was a comment where >someone called Amercan music "he-man" music. If that means, it's an active >yet agressive form, hell yes! I see this as a compliment (thanks whomever) >But,I'd venture to say this wanker stuff disscussed here is in turn "she-man" >musak. It's much more passive and introspective and stagnant. Now that I' >ve insulted all the genders, we continue. Well, you haven't insulted all genders, just the female. Your "Hell yes! Toss me another brewski, duuuude!" bit was doubtless not intended as offensive to males ... As for "mangling": what's wrong with it? Many many American bands are working directly from the "roots" framework, which is O.K, but it's just one way of doing things. British bands take the American blues/country/ gospel basics, as well as the rock refinements, and interpret and deconstruct them. As I'm a postmodern kinda guy, I often find this more interesting than the basics. (This is not to say that all American bands stick to the roots, but they're usually much more reverent toward them.) >>. The Emperor Has No Clothes: (anti-flame) >>. Synths are evil. ..etc.. I thought that Bob was just quoting all the American-testosterock cliches as an "Emperor has no clothes" thing, and Hofmann goes on taking them all at face value. Who's right here? I think some of the statements Bob quotes (and I don't know if he believes them) have some validity, but most are just ridiculous. Synths are evil, indeed. "Anything new is *strickly* for faggots", hmmm? The proggers showed that you didn't have to be an avant-garde Stockhausen-oid to use synths, the syth-poppers showed that you didn't have to be pompous to use them, and bands like Cabaret Voltaire and Executive Slacks show that you don't even have to have binky-binky bouncy hooks or moussed haircuts to use 'em. The synth is an amazingly versatile instrument, and dismissing it as "evil" is an absurd generalization that goes nowhere. And kids: let's not fall back on homophobic (British music is by and for flaming-limp-wristed-pouffter-dickless-faggots) or sexist (British music is feminine, i.e. "much more passive and introspective and stagnant") cliches. Get real. --Peter Alfke "`That's by Stockhausen', the hip graybeard informed her, `the early crowd tends to dig your Radio Cologne sound. Later on we really swing. We're the only bar in the area, you know, has a strictly electronic music policy. ...we got a whole back room full of your audio oscillators, gunshot machines, contact mikes, every- thing. That's for if you didn't bring your axe, see, but you got the feeling and you want to swing with the rest of the cats, there's always something available.'" --Thomas Pynchon, "The Crying of Lot 49" [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 11:37 PDT From: IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: End of French KT interview Y.B.: How did you come upon the idea of working on this concept which fills an entire side, which has become extremely out of fashion? K.B.: It's not nice to call it a concept, because automatically it causes panic, and everyone is convinced that they're going to die of boredom. But that's an idiotic attitude. A concept allows you to develop a piece of music around a theme, at a length which exceeds ten minutes. Before pop music, all the great works of music were of this kind, of this shape and of this attitude. It's unjust. I've wanted to work on something of this kind for a long time. For me, the more an idea is extended, the more riches it contains. Y.B.: This allowed you to use traditional music, which you like very much. K.B.: Irish, as far as this particular album goes. English and Irish folk music have had a gigantic influence on me, since I was a child.My brothers played it constantly at home and that affected me profoundly. Whenever I hear Irish folk music, nowadays, I feel drawn to it; I greatly enjoyed introducing it into my own vocabulary and using its musicians. Y.B.: On The Dreaming you went to some pains to announce on the sleeve that this music must be played very loudly. That amused me at the time. K.B.: In the studio, you heard it really loud. For mixing, we had to turn it down, to pay attention to details, but my desire was to be totally overwhelmed by the flood of sound. In any case music, all music, was made to be heard at the volume at which it was played, that is to say in this case LOUD. Y.B.: That album was a difficult one to accept, for the uninitiated. K.B.: I have no doubt that those who buy singles because they like my hits, are completely mystified upon hearing the albums. But if it comes to that, they should listen to it LOUDLY! If a single theme linked The Dreaming, which is quite varied, it would be human relationships and emotional problems. Every being responds principally to emotions. Some people are very cool, but they are silenced by their emotions, whatever they might be. To write a song, it's necessary that I be completely steeped in my environment, in my subject. Sometimes the original idea is maintained, but as it takes form, it possesses me. One of the best examples would be this song that wrote on Houdini: I knew every one of the things that I wanted to say, and it was necessary that I find new ways that would allow me to say them; the hardest thing, is when you have so many things to fit into so short a space of time. You have to be concise and at the same time not remain vague, or obscure. The Dreaming was a decisive album for me. I hadn't recorded in such a long time until I undertook it, and that was the first time that I'd had such liberty. It was intoxicating and frightening at the same time. I could fail at everything and ruin my career at one fell swoop. All this energy, my frustrations, my fears, my wish to succeed, all that went into the record. That's the principle of music: to liberate all the tensions that exist inside you. I tried to give free rein to all my fantasies. Although all of the songs do not talk about me, they represent all the facets of my personality, all my different attitudes in relation to the world. In growing older, I see more and more clearly that I am crippled in facing the things that really count, and that I can do nothing about it, just as most people can do nothing. Making an album is insignificant in comparison with that, but it's my only defense. Y.B.: Alot of people complain that your music has become too complex, inaccessible, exclusive. K.B.: People's reactions before any kind of music reflect more their own personality than that of the composer. As far as my lyrics are concerned, I take a great deal of care; they are very oblique and describe situations that are not always simple. It's not always easy, but it's necessary to make an effort and listen actively, give of oneself. But even if nobody understands my stories, to understand the music, once more, they must play it LOUD! Y.B.: As a general rule, you're not very optimistic. K.B.: I wouldn't say that I'm not. I think I'm realistic. If you want to accomplish things, you must accept compromises. That applies particularly to human beings, who are so determined to get what they want, that they only give in when they've been defeated. It's necessary to know how to give in, to accept and defer, sometimes. Situations of love, for example, begin very simply, then, even before you can perceive it, they become a spider's web of problems, so inextricable that they end in the most complete chaos. I just lived through a marvelous and destructive adventure. I believe furthermore that love and inter-personal relationships are the most important things in existence. My family represents everything for me. And even if, every time, failures repeat themselves, I never take them as such, but rather as new tests on the path that I have still to run. Y.B.: This makes more than five years since you last mounted a stage. Is there hope for 1986? K.B.: I was hoping to avoid that question!!! I certainly want very much to play on stage again, but it's a decision for which the consequences are enormous, both financially and in terms of the amount of time and energy that are necessary. I've just given everything in me to complete this album and I'm not certain that it's for the best that I plunge into such a venture, all the more as I've received several propositions of an entirely different order, but which would not be compatible with a tour. As they say over here: "Allons voir {Wait and see}!" END OF FRENCH INTERVIEW [][][][][][][][][][] Date: 15 May 86 16:13:00 PST From: "ROSSI J.A." Subject: Hi-NRG Reply-To: "ROSSI J.A." I thank Peter Alfke for describing the essentials of Hi-NRG music. I am surprised, that TRANS-X's 'Living on Video' is a good example of it, however. Frankly, I'm surprised that Living on Video is a good example of anything. Alfke is right, however, it is 'shit' but only 'nearly complete shit'. It is only roughly approximate to the rest of the stuff on the album (same name) although the production standards suck, overall. There are reasons for this suck-out trash, though. First, when Pascal was working in a French medium, he remained largely unsold. Not only was the language barrier a problem mut the cosmic-mind-expanding-space-out nature of the music he was doing was not so popular either. So, what's a young drummer turned guitarist turned synthesist to do ? SELL OUT, of course. Unfortunately, Pascal did not know how to sell out correctly. His first move was buying a lot of MIDI synths and some new effect boxes. Next he needed a medium. Since the sequencer cliches of Georgeo and Gary Numan are easy enough to duplicate, they made a nice backdrop for the rest of the stuff. His next step was in finding other musicians that would contribute to the material (i.e., play that stuff without getting sick). He failed to be successfull in that area. Thus, as he had in the past, he did a pretty much solo (except for the vocals) album. So what resulted was, correctly identified as disco, and what's worse, lo quality disco. What I find really funny about this, is, that Pascal hates disco. Back during the first disco revolution in the mid-70's (Bee Gees, AWB, etc), when we were exploring mind-ZAP music, Pascal and I actually penned a song parody entitled Disco on the Moon. It seemed as though the whole progressive Montreal music scene was telling disco jokes (I think disco was taken much more seriouslythere then here). Ten years later, Pascal has a disco album which is pretty bad on most levels, not hyped to any great extent (as a matter of fact, LOV is almost unknown on the East coast), but manages to go gold in Mexico and Germany despite its hopless inadequacies. This is, in effect, an example of how people will buy trash, if it is packaged well. Also, it is a sad commentary on how and why musicians sell out. Pascal maintained a low profile for about 8 years as a starving progressive musician. His three previous albums (all French) were dedicated to the beliefe that there can be mind/music meld, and were reasonably good tries at that end. Now, in one swoop, he becomes popular (at least in Mexico and Germany), and starts to see a payoff. Reinforcement works in strange and mystical ways. Now to sadly tie this in with the proposed topic of conversation, Kate Bush. I predict that we have seen the near end of her non-commercial efforts. Hell, Fairlights are expensive, as are home studios (especially ones that enable production of a product that is up to the technical standards of the industry). I will be very much surprised if the next LP release is not more commercially oriented than HoL. Also, I expect that the first single from the next release will make Sledgehammer sound like The Dreaming, so as to make the name Kate Bush a household word among the high school set. I could be wrong, I don't know Kate personally. I would also like to see her not sell out, we all need our heroes. Unfortunately, I do know Pascal Languirand quite well, and in the long run, money talks (money is of course not the only reinforcer here, popularity and fame are also important iongredients in a mass sell out). I hope all of the high school fans of the sell out album will be ready for the mental explosion eminent when they rush out and buy The Dreaming. I hope I'm wrong, but I've given up believing in 'the perfect dedication to musicianship' in artists who depend on their product as a livelyhood. The trend Kate has exhibited from Lionheart to The Dreaming falling back to HoL, is sufficient to warrant my speculation. This disease, called success, is catchy, indeed. 'Impaled on nails, of ice' John ------ [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 16:01 PDT From: IED0DXM%UCLAMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU Subject: PG on KT Interviewed in Record Mirror, May 10, p. 27, Peter Gabriel was asked about Kate's work on his album, So. Here is the relevant passage, written by Mike Gardner: "Don't Give Up" -- probably a future single and a duet with Kate Bush -- is a look at relationships under the stresses and strains of unemployment. The song features allusions to the American dustbowl and has gospel and country influences. In fact, a country singer {NME alleges Dolly Parton} was first mooted for the female vocal until he {Gabriel} again picked Bush -- a collaborator on "Games Without Frontiers" and "No Self Control" on his third album. "Kate did a great job. I'm a great fan of her singing and her voice. I think she sang on that track very differently to how she sings on her own records -- in a very sensitive way. There are similarities in the way we work. She works as slowly as I do -- with is reassuring." [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 16:51:45 EDT From: Swingset Disaster Subject: machorock vs discowimp, (Alfke babbles) Let me start this with pointing out that I forgot about alot of really good English bands ... including: Rudimentary Peni Sacrilage (London) and Part 1 The rest? Well, I ain't gonna say anything since it's obvious others have made up your mind for you ... Hi NRG? *GGGGAAAAGGGG* >>True, not all of us but yes, in general and yes, the Brits do tend to take >>it and mangle it (MaClaren being the prime abuser). There was a comment where >>someone called Amercan music "he-man" music. If that means, it's an active >>yet agressive form, hell yes! I see this as a compliment (thanks whomever) >>But,I'd venture to say this wanker stuff disscussed here is in turn "she-man" >>musak. It's much more passive and introspective and stagnant. Now that I' >>ve insulted all the genders, we continue. >Well, you haven't insulted all genders, just the female. Your "Hell yes! >Toss me another brewski, duuuude!" bit was doubtless not intended as offensive >to males ... Who the hell are you to speak for females. Shit, who are you to speak for males or me? I don't consider agressiveness a particular compliment, it's just the w a y t h i n g s a r e. >As I'm a postmodern kinda guy, I often find this more >interesting than the basics. (This is not to say that all American >bands stick to the roots, but they're usually much more reverent toward >them.) Define post-modern ... you obviously don't know what you're talking about. >I thought that Bob was just quoting all the American-testosterock >cliches as an "Emperor has no clothes" thing, and Hofmann goes on taking >them all at face value. Who's right here? I think some of the >statements Bob quotes (and I don't know if he believes them) have some >validity, but most are just ridiculous. Synths are evil, indeed. >"Anything new is *strickly* for faggots", hmmm? The proggers showed >that you didn't have to be an avant-garde Stockhausen-oid to use synths, >the syth-poppers showed that you didn't have to be pompous to use them, >and bands like Cabare That's right - bandy some obscure names around, think you're real cute don't ya? There was a lot of validity in what he said ... not all but some. Yeah .. testosterock ... but give me more ... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... At least it's rock and not disco ... ya know? [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 17:04:01 EDT From: don't forget the Blow Monkeys Subject: Synths aren't evil ... It's just that some synth players ARE obnoxious. I really don't find anything interesting about the machine (derivative of macho by the way), tin-pan, rubber band electronically timed artifical for the sake of being artifical sounds. I think synths are wonderful as a low-cost, easy to transport substitute for organs or (if set up properly) pianos. Though I'd prefer to hear flute or violin or oboe in a piece played on the real think - I can certainly empathize when the band can't afford to bring a flotist or violinist along and substitute synthesizer. The bands that I consider the prime offenders of over synthesizing are like Depeche Mode, Peter Gabriel and Genesis, Yes etc etc etc. I say - "Use it - don't abuse it" I never said I agreed that "synths are evil" and RPK is right - this is an attitude among some bands but mostly among the fans of American underground. Most of the bands either can't afford a good synth (yeah, I know the shouldn't be playing music then, right Alfke?) or what they can afford they don't feel as comfortable with it up on stage. >From what I've heard of Great Plains and some others, they use synths very sparingly and as ornament (and perhaps melody) only. When the synth becomes a centerpiece, it becomes pretty boring - quick unless you are Birdsongs of the Mezzizoic (sp) or (obligatory Kate note) you know who. But then these are usually recording masterpieces and very hard to duplicate on stage without "cheating" ... Take THAT however you want, Alfke as it's obvious your level of comprehension has faltered from too much synth musak .. and let Dick Clark work out all the details. [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 17:27:02 EDT From: yeah - let's get real Subject: self-explanatory (more alfkebabblespeak) sexist>And kids: let's not fall back on homophobic (British music is by and for sexist>flaming-limp-wristed-pouffter-dickless-faggots) or sexist (British music sexist>is feminine, i.e. "much more passive and introspective and stagnant") sexist>cliches. Get real. Alfke, get yer head outta yer butthole! Lissen up - tho you didn't accuse me - let me say that I've never equated wimpwavo with gays that would be an insult to some very fine people (mainly, gays) ... but as for SEXIST you're the one who called American underground for the MOST PART "HE-MAN" music. Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't sexist cliches include those that MAKE THEM ABOUT MALES TOO? The liberal asswipe double standard STTTTTTTRIKES AGAIN. "and what's behind curtain number 3, Johnny?" { KABANG!!! ... solitary sound of wavo head rolling down a otherwise quiet alley- way } Get real, Mommy.... --James Hofmann [][][][][][][][][][] Return-Path: Date: Thu, 15 May 86 17:38:29 EDT From: Susanne E Trowbridge Subject: answers "Where can I get those Jane Siberry albums?" Her latest is distributed by the mighty A&M Records (Windham Hill/ Open Air is the actual label, though) so even the most dreadful mall record shop should have it. If not, it should be ridiculously easy to order. Of course, I went looking for the Smiths' debut album in the summer of '84, after it had been out for at least four months, and the hopeless record shop I went to had never even heard of them, even though they are affiliated with the mighty Warner Bros/Sire. It pays to patronize the shops of those who actually make an effort to keep up with music that isn't necessarily in the top-40. "What is Hi-NRG music?" High energy...it got its start in the gay discos, but there is some crossover (Pet Shop Boys began working with the master of Hi-NRG stuff, Bobby Orlando, or just Bobby O for short). It's basically synthesizer music with lots and lots of beats per minute. Disco, even. Donna Summer's "Love To Love You Baby" is Hi-NRG. Some of the better known artists are Divine (yes, the star of John Waters' films), Hazell Dean, The Flirts, Princess, etc. Quite a bit of it can be found on the British charts. Most Hi-NRG "artists" have very little to do with the creation of their music; they are just mouthpieces for producers like Bobby O. If you want to hear it, seek out a gay disco (like our fabled Hippo here in Bal'mer) and you will undoubtedly hear quite a bit... -Sue [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 14 May 86 14:01:18 cdt From: ll-xn!caip!uwvax!astroatc!gtaylor (Greg Taylor) Subject: those Brian Eno videos Apparently-To: Love-Hounds >From: John Kitamura > >Brian Eno update: > The CD version of MORE BLANK THAN FRANK has at least one ambient >track on it ("1/1", from Music For Airports). I don't recall if it differs > Also I noticed a video and CD release by Eno (I can't remember the name >but I think it's something like "Thursday Afternoon") with little or no >information regarding what appears on either product. Does anyone have >these items? Yeah. I have the stuff. The video is a series of portrait-type paintings of a semi-nude woman. The monitor must be turned on its side to view the pieces. The video treatments are very slow and very subtle, often just little skeins of colour being blown slowly onto the skin. The CD is actually the music to the piece. It's the late-period Eno technique of setting up multiple loops of subtle changes. Unlike some of his other ambient stuff, there's a single, sustained chordal wash that covers the whole of the piece. It's in the "The Pearl" and "Apollo" vein, only much longer and slower. Many very nice little touches are done at excruciatingly low volume levels. I initially did not care all that much for it, but now find that it's really grown on me. And the patented Eno tape hiss that colours everything else he's done is or seems to be largely absent. By the way, the CD from MBTF replaces King's lead hat with "back in Judy's Jungle" Heaven knows why they did that, but hey. "As one who sees within a dream, and, later/the passion that had been imprinted stays,/but nothing of the rest returns to mind,/such am I- for my my vision almost fades/completely, yet it distills within/my heart the sweetness that was born of it."(Dante/Paradiso,XXXIII 58-63) [][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 15 May 86 15:22:41 cdt From: ll-xn!uwvax!astroatc!gtaylor (oh...*Gregory* Taylor...never mind.) Subject: Roxy Romance Apparently-To: Love-Hounds >Love-Hounds Digest Thursday, May 15, 1986, 04:53 EDT >Who is Jacques Brelle? It's Brel. He's a French songwriter who wrote a particularly lovely kind of bittersweet ballad. Many of his songs were made famous by Edith Piaf. If you ever heard any Judy Collins' "Whales and Nightengales" there is a lovely cover of Brel's "Marieke" on it. Problem is that you've got to speak French. There are English translations of Brel's things, but they aren't as good as the originals in my humble, non-Frogspeak-with-particular-aplomb opine. >God send my ANYONE who can relate to my "abnormal" daily fix >of Roxy Music &/or Bryan Ferry. Jesus, I listen to Roxy soooo >much each and every year I have to replace albums.....Guess a >CD would be more practical, huh? Yes, I can, though my needs aren't daily. For all our whining about how wonderful Kate is, I'd be hard pressed to find any other single group of artists who so successfully redefined everything that came after them (like Diane Arbus' use of the 2 1/4" square photograph) quite apart from specific style (read "emphasis on style" and have so singularly changed the face of British popular music. With the exception of Paul MacCartney's old band. I guess that one could claim that the Sex Pistols fall into that category, but I feel that they're indicative of a trend rather than actually the original harbingers of it. That's a bad thing to say here in a Kate Bush newsgroup, I guess. Anyway, the Roxy CD is all it's cracked up to be, and clocks in at a great time. I've only the slightest argument with their concentration on "Flesh and Blood" period stuff, and the slightest argument with which Brian Ferry covers they chose, but hey. The canon ain't half bad, and most of the important work is all there. George Melly coined the phrase "Revolt into Style" (and Bill Nelson ripped it off) to characterize the co-optation of "youth culture" in the marketplace in the "trad jazz" era. Listening to the RM stuff, I think we have a case of "Style into Revolt...." The elevation of the surfaces of "pop" music to a kind of self-conscious world-weary construct that has strongly affected the whole of Britpop for the last 12 years or so. All you young whippersnappers here cannot possibly imagine how the first Roxy album sounded buzzsawing out of the speakers when I first brought it home (I heard "Virginia Plain" on the BBC world service and spent weeks looking for the record back then. Note that this makes me visionary and cool. And old.). Between that and "Is your love strong enough" there is a world of shift that's worthy of some serious thought. Tim W.: >These 80's kids remind me of the hippies of the 60's: I mean they got >bored of fighting for their ideals and decided to join the human race, >and they became the yuppies of today. They all sold out pretty much to >the machinery, and in a big way. It's kind of sad to see these thirty-plus >year old cretins trying to defend their actions for becoming the way >they did. Sad is the word for it, Tim. As Hannah Arendt has suggested in her writings on the roots of Authoritarianism, the death of idealism is a rich ground for fascism, since the burned cynic has little or nothing to lose. Multiply that by x00,000,000 and you've got the 80s. As for the causes themselves, they still defy easy categorization, and still refuse to collapse at the touch of the ideological/economic/epistemic wand. Now we even have a really lovely set of straw men (Falwellians, the new Right, etc.) to moan about. They're great targets, but I fear that they blind us to something very simple: the ease with which they can be lumped together in a single, faceless mass allows us to believe that they're not like us and never could be. Such a view also allows us to neatly sidestep whatever vague dread of whiff of apprehension we may ahve that we're not very happy with our identifications, either. Of course, this mailing list may not be the best place for us to talk about this in detail (I keep thinking about the extent to which Kate Bush is a kind of modern-day apotheosis of the "Romantic Egotist" hooked to a mass-market and a technology that extends her reach). And the *really* interesting bit for all you youths is to wonder how many of your peers will deal with the notion that the "realistic" attitudes about money and influence and drive in the marketplace require an endlessly extensible economic infrastructure that cannot hold, and a kind of attitude about self-empowerment that may turn out to be at odds with the vagaries of the world-where the Heathen rage and the Unrighteous prosper (you must, of course, redefine those terms for a secular age). The key phrase here is "diminished expectations" and it will be interesting to see how *their* diminised exps are different than *mine.* End of sermon/ramble/essay, and back to the hounding already in progress. Hi, Tim. "As one who sees within a dream, and, later/the passion that had been imprinted stays,/but nothing of the rest returns to mind,/such am I- for my my vision almost fades/completely, yet it distills within/my heart the sweetness that was born of it."(Dante/Paradiso,XXXIII 58-63) [][][][][][][][][][] -- It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, allegra, gatech, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds gds@eddie.mit.edu